D&D 5E (2014) Solving the 5MWD

[Harzel]

I'm not tying recovery to fictional events but it IS variable.
The PC controls when he'd like to push and recover - if he does he/she AUTO recovers but risks getting exhausted. The DC is dependent on how many days since the PCs last Long Rest (24 hrs) AND the number of times he/she has already recovered on that same day. The PC is in full control of his/her own recovery - not tied to anyone else's and certainly not dependent on the DM's x hours uninterrupted rubbish.

I think your idea is quite interesting, so I don't want to get hung up on what is somewhat tangential, but isn't the PC deciding to push and recover a fictional event? It seems like one, or at least like the game-mechanical description of one. Isn't that why tying it to exhaustion "makes sense" to you?

 

[Harzel]

Good question.

(1) No arbitrary short rest period of 1 hour.
(2) It places the recovery mechanism in the control of the PCs as opposed to the DM.
(3) The recovery system is tied to exhaustion which makes more sense to us.
(4) Each PC controls their own recovery rate, so not tied to the forced 1 hour group rest.
(5) Long distance travels generally creates longer periods between Long Rests making recovery riskier (the DC increases the further it is since your previous Long Rest) making overland travel inherently riskier as it should be.
(6) System works well for all adventuring locales (dungeon, overland & city).
(7) Random Encounters mechanic can still be used to urge pacing but now it doesn't delay recovery (before RE could interrupt 1 hour rest time).

Really interesting. In theory, I'd prefer having a smaller chance of a less debilitating negative consequence tied to each "over-limit" use of the PC's resource. "Full recovery" and "exhaustion" are big chunks which create a risk 'cliff' and a reward 'spike', but it does have the distinct advantage of being much less fiddly than a more incremental approach.

 

[Sadras]

I think your idea is quite interesting, so I don't want to get hung up on what is somewhat tangential, but isn't the PC deciding to push and recover a fictional event? It seems like one, or at least like the game-mechanical description of one. Isn't that why tying it to exhaustion "makes sense" to you?

I may be mistaken, and FrogReaver can correct me if I'm wrong in his interpretation, but I was reading the variable in fictional event to be somewhat different - such as a particular day or time frame within a story or at the whim of the DM, thereby the resting period is variable from story to story or session to session or location to location. i.e. the refresh rate is different in a dungeon to say the city because its tricky to do 6-8 encounters in the city per day....

 

[Harzel]

I may be mistaken, and FrogReaver can correct me if I'm wrong in his interpretation, but I was reading the variable in fictional event to be somewhat different - such as a particular day or time frame within a story or at the whim of the DM, thereby the resting period is variable from story to story or session to session or location to location. i.e. the refresh rate is different in a dungeon to say the city because its tricky to do 6-8 encounters in the city per day....

Ah, ok, that distinction makes sense.

 

[clearstream]

I may be mistaken, and FrogReaver can correct me if I'm wrong in his interpretation, but I was reading the variable in fictional event to be somewhat different - such as a particular day or time frame within a story or at the whim of the DM, thereby the resting period is variable from story to story or session to session or location to location. i.e. the refresh rate is different in a dungeon to say the city because its tricky to do 6-8 encounters in the city per day....

Can you post the rules of your system? I've looked back up the threads and can see descriptions of it, but no rules (apologies if I have overlooked them).

 

[Sadras]

Really interesting. In theory, I'd prefer having a smaller chance of a less debilitating negative consequence tied to each "over-limit" use of the PC's resource. "Full recovery" and "exhaustion" are big chunks which create a risk 'cliff' and a reward 'spike', but it does have the distinct advantage of being much less fiddly than a more incremental approach.

Our recovery mechanics are a little more complicated than that - there is a substantial difference between recovering LR abilities and SR abilities.

Just as an example...
Fighter (Level 1) expends all his SR abilities and pushes himself to recover them again.
He auto gets them, but rolls a check. First recovery of the day and it has been 2 days since his last LR so the DC is set at 5+2 = 7.
His modifiers are 2 x proficiency, therefore +2 x 2 = +4.
He needs a 3 (3+4 = 7) to avoid gaining a level in Exhaustion.
He succeeds or fails, the next DC on that day is increased by 5, therefore 7+5 = 12

We have a further rule, that applies to SR & LR abilities as you roll for them separately - if this is the first time you are attempting to recover abilities since your last LR you gain Advantage on your first roll.

A wizard wishes to recover his LR spells slots (same level same day).
He auto gets them, but rolls a check.
The DC for LR abilities is 10 + the number of days since his Long Rest therefore the DC =12.
Wizard rolls +4 and has Advantage (since it is his first time recovering). Needs an 8 to avoid 3 levels of exhaustion.
Should he wish to try recover LR abilities on the same day the DC increases by 10. ie. 12+10 = DC 22.

There are more rules, provisos...etc but this is the basics, I can send you the full doc if you want.

 

[Garthanos]

13th Age. Abilities recharging on a fixed schedule by encounter, in that case some after each encounter, and a 'full heal up' after every 4th encounter. Simple & workable, but limits your options both as player & DM.
We've mentioned a few times and I started abbreviating.

Perhaps the reason is Fate / Divine helps you by reinforcing the heroic behavior in effect its by pushing forward you serve better and are rewarded.

Why would such forces care about your sleep cycle after all?

 

[Garthanos]

Class balance issues are not the only reason for disliking 5MWD.

Tackiness?

In 4e you have most of your class balance even if you have players leveraging daily rest cycles excessively as everyone benefits from the rest... with little activity in between

 

[clearstream]

There are more rules, provisos...etc but this is the basics, I can send you the full doc if you want.

Yes please - link a pdf or homebrewery or whatever you have.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't understand the inclusion of "Gygaxian Skilled Play" in this list. Skilled play is possible in any game that is not pure chance, so I guess you mean something more specific by "Gygaxian". (?)

Tony is talking about player-initiated recharge of abilities. Gygax wrote a fair bit about playing D&D back in the day, and was very much a hardcore dungeon crawl kind of guy, with the players expected to play hardball themselves and use stuff like 5MWD-type play (not called that back then of course) to their advantage. He'd expect you to find a way to rest before facing the big boss or the like.

If all your abilities are tied, instead, to a DM-controlled level-up, that presents a very different mode of play. It is also necessarily less possible to be "skilled" at using abilities with per level stuff, because it is simply rationing, and thus the only real way to be "skilled" is to somehow know, beforehand, what you are facing, in some detail, and to plan resource usage, deviating as required by bad/good dice rolls and so on. There's no "Oh naughty word that was a tough encounter we need to find a way to rest and prepare for the next!", and if you blow most/all of your abilities you're just screwed, with no ability to execute a plan to regain those abilities. You can't even fight your way back out of the dungeon and recharge. Instead you're staring at the XP bar (as it were), which is your only guide.

In a computer game with set encounters I think per level stuff could work really well and because you could know the encounters you could develop elaborate strategies and be quite skilled, but it's definitely not as Gygax intended, which featured a lot more going face-first (or 10ft pole first) into the unknown and finding ways to recover and prepare and so on.

I actually think what people are really looking for here is to essentially remove casters, and make all magic be scrolls and potions. That avoids all the weirdness and awkwardness of linking stuff to level up and allows for greater tactical and strategic decision-making than level up based stuff.