D&D 5E Solving the 5MWD

[dave2008]

So let me start with a fictional explanation of what I see happening in this system. That may make it more palatable for you.

In this system magical power would be a resivor the gets used up. Except level up is like busting through the Dam that's holding the rest of the water back and then the resivor refills. Each level up is another Dam that get's busted through.

IMO. This allows the mechanic to make fictional sense.

Question, what happens at 20th level. Once you use up those spells are you just done? No more magic?

 

[FrogReaver]

Question, what happens at 20th level. Once you use up those spells are you just done? No more magic?

You will not hit 20th level

 

[FrogReaver]

Question, what happens at 20th level. Once you use up those spells are you just done? No more magic?

probably would extend xp curve as if leveling but no level just ability recharge

 

[billd91]

I think this antagonism or opposition between DM interests and player interests is not a good argument. Were it true that some group only wanted all-alpha-all-the-time, then yes, I would agree that for such a narrow-interest group there would be low value in mitigating the 5MWD. However, I don't buy into such narrow-interest groups being the majority. Instead I have found players open to new experiences. A great DM is doing things that surprise them, delivering them a play style they might not have anticipated or chosen for themselves.

Well that depends on whether or not you've correctly diagnosed why the players are opting to do the 5MWD. If that is the style they truly want to play, then TiwasTyrsfist really is right (and I'm glad they've presented that viewpoint since it tends to be in the minority opinion around here). Pushing to play your way would be the antagonist approach.

Of course, maybe then D&D isn't the game for them and Mutants and Masterminds might be a system better suited to their play. But that's what you get when you have an 800 lbs gorilla in the industry - many groups play it and mold it into their own styles rather than seek out a game that might be a more direct fit.

 

[Sadras]

Yes please - link a pdf or homebrewery or whatever you have.

Hope it makes sense - it takes some time to adjust or get your head around it.
We have had success using this system for the last almost 2 years but of course each table is different.

EDIT: The original idea came from @Ilbranteloth and I adjusted the modifier from 1d20 + proficiency + primary mod to 2 x proficiency because of a conversation with @Blue

 

[Uller]

I feel like that doesn't capture my goals. I am looking to be able to offer play that is not all-alpha-all-the-time. So I want diversity. I'd like to be able to sometimes offer conserve-your-power-carefully play.

So it is about diversity in play, not punishing players.

For me this problem is solved in the following ways:

1) Always give hints to your players that there is more to the world than the current encounter. NPCs and monsters have allies. There are bigger and meaner things stalking the adventure location. If an NPC or monster escapes the fight they will seek revenge or to recapture whatever was lost. The PCs should rarely feel comfortable just reasting in a place that is not a safe haven.

2) Limit the effectiveness of rests or expand the time. I allow 3 short rests per day, each takes twice as long as the last...15 min, 30 min, 1 hour. Long rests in the dungeon reset this but only count as a short rest...long rests require a completely safe haven or very well stocked and established camp amd take 24 hours.

4) Before they decide to rest help them understand that the NPCs will get a "turn" in the larger game. Rooms will restock. Wounded will heal. Reinforcements might arrive. PC allies mught be attacked, etc. Give an ingame consequence. Your adventures should not feel like an old school CRPG where the monsters are just waiting for the PCs to come kill them.

4) Talk to your players. If they are going nova every encounter there is a reason. I advise my players that I want them to use their kewl powers and their consumable items. They will tend to use a power or two to establish dominance in a fight then will start to conserve because they understand that they don't know how safe they really are. By 3rd level they should have made some allies...and a few enemies.

To me, the 5MWD problem is not solved only with rules. It requires the DM to present a game world that is dangerous enough that the players feel they have to conserve resources and press on even when they are low. It also requires the players to stick to the social contract that their PCs have motivations (sometimes unspoken by the DM) to finish the adventure...they want to get back to soft bed and warm food, to lives they left behind, or they want to have time for other things.

 

[dave2008]

You will not hit 20th level

I'm the DM man, I'm like already 1000th level or something

 

[dave2008]

probably would extend xp curve as if leveling but no level just ability recharge

Similar to epic boons then

 

[Zardnaar]

Seeing more 5MWD in 5E. Its an exaggeration but blow all spells rst in 2-3 encounters seems to be bigger thing than previous editions.

5-6 per long rest encounters is a lot.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Question, what happens at 20th level. Once you use up those spells are you just done? No more magic?

Mandatory retirement? Maybe you get an old-adventurer pension of 1 spell slot/month or something? Also, you gain the ability to bore enemies into surrender using a powerful mystic phrase beginning "Back in my day...."

I don't understand the inclusion of "Gygaxian Skilled Play" in this list. Skilled play is possible in any game that is not pure chance, so I guess you mean something more specific by "Gygaxian".

Yep, specific to old-school D&D, the idea is that players will gain skill at playing the game - what we today might call 'meta-game knowledge' and use it to greatest effect - and also that the DM would actively work against them, that way, staying a few steps ahead and keeping it challenging. Player-initiated rest would have been an expected component of that, as would have been the DM messing with it, through everything from rolling wandering monsters to having the safe place outside the dungeon turn out to be not so safe afterall, to whatever his fiendish mind could come up with.

Almost an arms race - of wits.

Class balance issues are not the only reason for disliking 5MWD.

There's many stylistic (even 'artistic,' I suppose) reasons for disliking the 5MWD - and some, like being able to dramatically take on an encounter well above your paygrade now & then, when fresh & fully prepared, for /liking/ it, or, at least, allowing it advisedly. The effect on class balance - in 5e, of deviating from the prescribed range of encounters and short rests, in general - is a problem for any style that could have a legitimate use for the 5MWD.