D&D 5E Some spells _really_ powerful?

[aramis erak]

Have any of you actually played the game?

Warder

Yep.

And the cantrips are directly comparable to decent weapons.

Ray of Frost is a 60' ranged spell attack versus a single target for 1d8 cold & -10' of movement... Requires LOS.
Poison Spray is a 10 reach autohit for Con Save or take 1d12 poison damage
Fire Bolt is a 120' ranged spell attack versus single target for 1d10 fire damage
Acid Spray is a 60' ranged autohit vs 1-2 targets for Dex Save or 1d6 acid damage each
Sacred Flame is a 60' ranged autohit vs 1 target for Dex Save or 1d8 radiant damage.
Shocking Grasp is an advantaged Melee Spell Attack for 1d8 lightning & no reactions.

They're all pretty good comparisons to the martial weapons on the Basic Weapons Table... And in play, just as erratic, and just as effective.

 

[jadrax]

Yep.

And the cantrips are directly comparable to decent weapons.

Except you don't add your Ability Mod to damage. Which means they are not directly comparable unless all your Abilities are 10.

 

[Alessandro Guarita]

About the 8d6 fireball damage. Yes, it *seems* a lot on a first glance. As a lot of posters mentioned: the wizard is burning his precious slots doing it.
But there are some other points to consider:


1. The fireball is a area damage spell. This make it powerful (since it hits a lot of enemies) and problematic for the caster, specially if he lost his initiative, since he can hit some friends on the way (unless you are playing a Evoker). So, you don't have aways the chance to use it. Also remember: the fireball are a 20-foot RADIUS sphere. It means that in a room of less than 40 ft. of each side it will hit the enemies, the caster's friends and the caster. It's only safe if the casters is a evoker and it's a 4 member party. It's not very easy to make safe use in a dungeon.


2. The fireball does fire damage. And fire resistance is pretty common (at least it was on 3rd edition... it can be different on 5th edition MM). It is so common that 1 PHB race come with it (tiefling) and another one can, potentially have it also (dragonborn). Of course this also can benefits the party (if the warrior has fire damage resistance, the wizard/sorcerer/whatever can cast a fireball with less worry).


3. You are considering only a fight between PCs and NPCs built with PC rules. It's not the case. The most traditional fight is between PC and Monster. Even a NPC is build in a different way (check the NPCs on Hoard of the Dragon Queen free PDF and the Basic DM and you'll see a lot of differences). Browsing the Basic DM and using the "Challenge 5" keyword I noticed that the monster with this CR has a 90 ~ 120 hp. A fireball cast by a 5th level caster does, 28 damage on average, 48 on a very very luck roll with 6 on all dice. And more, take a look on the NPCs on that file. You'll see a CR 2 Berserker with 67 hp!!! There is no PC that can reach that amount of hp. Even a CR 1/8, 1/4 NPC has more than one hit dice (but it does have an average hp like a level 1 PC). And, look again: 67 hp for a level 2 NPC. Even a fireball cast by a level 5 wizard with MAX damage can't kill him!!!


4. Now, remember another thing: the wizard and sorcerer have, both of then, low hp and AC. They are easy prey for NPCs and they can focus on take him down first. Put this on your game and the things will be very, very different. A lot of fights isn't only melee fights. A lot of monsters have ranged attack and also have the NPCs. Even the melee NPC can try to reach the party caster. This put a pressure on it, making him spend precious slot and action to protect himself. For a caster be so powerful, he needs the protect of a fighter and, eventually, the healing of a cleric. Otherwise he'll be the most powerful PC on the grave.


The hp consideration on my post (the 3rd one), by the way, is true for a lot of arguments of this topic about damage. You can't compare PC and NPC on this edition. The HP is the main source of resistance, now, thanks to bounded accuracy.

 

[doctorhook]

Except you don't add your Ability Mod to damage. Which means they are not directly comparable unless all your Abilities are 10.

That's a pretty specious rebuttal. Cantrips are obviously meant to be comparable to weapon attacks: they're usable at will, they mostly only attack one target, and their total damage output is severely limited.

 

[jadrax]

That's a pretty specious rebuttal. Cantrips are obviously meant to be comparable to weapon attacks: they're usable at will, they mostly only attack one target, and their total damage output is severely limited.

You seem to have confused the meaning of 'comparable' and 'directly comparable'.

Of course they are comparable, but without adding the Ability damage you are going to have to take that into account. The obvious way is by looking at Average Damage, or if your a more poetic mindset, you could increase the 'type' of the dice by 1 step per point of Ability mod.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

That's a pretty specious rebuttal. Cantrips are obviously meant to be comparable to weapon attacks: they're usable at will, they mostly only attack one target, and their total damage output is severely limited.

They are "comparable" in that they fill the same role. However, they are meant to be less effective than weapons. That's why you don't add your stat modifier, so they are less effective. The poster he was replying to said they were just AS effective. He was saying that wasn't true because they don't do as much damage. I don't think that's specious at all.

 

[keterys]

That's a pretty specious rebuttal. Cantrips are obviously meant to be comparable to weapon attacks: they're usable at will, they mostly only attack one target, and their total damage output is severely limited.

Given that the post he's rebutting uses "directly comparable" to "decent weapons" for "just as effective" and talks about save negates spells being "autohit", it's actually a pretty on-key rebuttal.

I actually wish cantrips were more on-par with weapon use and daily spells less effective / other classes had similar "stretch" options, but it's certainly very on-point to note that a cantrip user deals consistently less damage than an effective melee or ranged weapon user.

Depending on the number of rests, that may be made up for (or much more than made up for) when they use a daily spell, though. There was a wotc article at one point where they talked about how it was okay to have a daily spell (ex: sleep or fireball) just destroy an encounter, because there's always more encounters. It's certainly a very D&D approach to things. I guess when they're used against the PCs, there's always more PCs to roll up?

 

[aramis erak]

DM needs to be on the players to take their actions or skip them. Lollygagging, looking stuff up and talking tactics have to be quashed.

In 2 hours, I ran two pretty rough combats last night, in a party of 7 players (with two kids ≤12yo), in a demo room with 3 tables of 7+ each (Noise, confusion). It's all in how one approaches them.

This isn't quite the lightest edition of D&D, but it's awful close.

One way to speed things up a bit - no measuring sticks, no grid maps, just wing the distances, or go entirely verbal.

 

[The Shadow]

You'll see a CR 2 Berserker with 67 hp!!! There is no PC that can reach that amount of hp. Even a CR 1/8, 1/4 NPC has more than one hit dice (but it does have an average hp like a level 1 PC). And, look again: 67 hp for a level 2 NPC. Even a fireball cast by a level 5 wizard with MAX damage can't kill him!!!

Careful, there. CR doesn't work the way it used to. The CR 2 Berserker is definitely not level 2. CR 2 means he's a significant threat to a four-man 2nd level party!

 

[doctorhook]

You seem to have confused the meaning of 'comparable' and 'directly comparable'.

Of course they are comparable, but without adding the Ability damage you are going to have to take that into account. The obvious way is by looking at Average Damage, or if your a more poetic mindset, you could increase the 'type' of the dice by 1 step per point of Ability mod.

They are "comparable" in that they fill the same role. However, they are meant to be less effective than weapons. That's why you don't add your stat modifier, so they are less effective. The poster he was replying to said they were just AS effective. He was saying that wasn't true because they don't do as much damage. I don't think that's specious at all.

Given that the post he's rebutting uses "directly comparable" to "decent weapons" for "just as effective" and talks about save negates spells being "autohit", it's actually a pretty on-key rebuttal.

I actually wish cantrips were more on-par with weapon use and daily spells less effective / other classes had similar "stretch" options, but it's certainly very on-point to note that a cantrip user deals consistently less damage than an effective melee or ranged weapon user.

Depending on the number of rests, that may be made up for (or much more than made up for) when they use a daily spell, though. There was a wotc article at one point where they talked about how it was okay to have a daily spell (ex: sleep or fireball) just destroy an encounter, because there's always more encounters. It's certainly a very D&D approach to things. I guess when they're used against the PCs, there's always more PCs to roll up?

Evidently I replied to something out of context. Let me excuse myself.