Something Awful leak.

[Incenjucar]

Lets just grant that everything you say here is 100% entirely accurate, which I don't really dispute, so what?!?!

The different durations create more refined bits of balance, allowing you to have certain effects available that would be too powerful otherwise. Removing them makes designers choose between balance and fun, where in 4E they can more easily have both.

Regardless of what sort of system is created you then design a set of powers which works with the tools at hand and produces a game which does what you want it to do. I don't see a problem.

It's the difference between grayscale and full color. Sure, you can do a LOT with grayscale, and you can make some absolutely beautiful stuff with it, and it's a perfectly valid and functional palette, but it's no help if I want to make a rainbow.

Given that 5e will ALMOST CERTAINLY have, and certainly SHOULD have, a goal of providing a tactically interesting but faster-paced and less granular game who cares?

Pretty sure that tactically interesting combat is going to be a module, and not the main game.

OK, so there are some awesome combos. The developers will know that. The game will be designed around that knowledge. The challenge level and capability of monsters will be built with that in mind. As long as the designers of the game factor in how good combos are and provide the monsters with the ability to either withstand them adequately or be present in the numbers and types required to maintain a good threat level to the party it is irrelevant.

Unless they start out at a very high power level (they seem to be leaning toward the OPPOSITE), higher than 4E's power level, they'll just have to not do things they otherwise could have done under 4E.

I'd much rather see a system where a good use of your resources in a clever way is rewarded by a good solid visible result than not. All too often in 4e the problem is that you do something 'awesome' and it has very little immediate impact at the table. Some monster takes a bunch of damage, but nothing DIES.

Monsters are expected to last multiple rounds in 4E. If you don't like it, reduce their HP and increase their damage. That has nothing to do with combos. The issue of combos is that it makes certain choices worse than other choices, in ways that cannot be easily anticipated.

So, I'm going to say that having one short duration that allows for decisive exploitation of a smaller number of more significant effects is not a problem at all for 5e. Designed properly around that concept I think it will be a stronger game and tactics will be more fun and revolve a LOT less around 'fiddly' power use.

So, you're all for the return of trap options? Most of the powers I talked about were at-wills. Most at-wills do not have combos. This runs the risk of making those non-combo powers into trap options.

 

[Janaxstrus]

He's not a "minion" of anyone. It's just a mechanics term. No stranger than calling Human NPCs "monsters" or "creatures", which is quite common.

He's a Brute because it categorizes how he's likely to fight in combat. Standardized terminology to make things clear to the DM.

He can't make armor because why should he be able to? Is every blacksmith supposed to be capable of making all items?

As for the 1HP, it's a mechanics representation thing. He has 1 HP, because a level 1 (or so) adventurer will fell him in one hit. That is the context where the combat mechanics are meaningful. They are not designed to model combats between wildly mismatched opponents. Those stats are not meaningful against a house cat, because that's just silly. Obviously, any able-bodied adult would not be seriously threatened in direct combat with a house-cat, to the degree that 3.5's house-cat mechanics suggest. Which illustrates why shoehorning everything into the same system isn't always a good idea.

But a minion is a devoted follower of something...

Those are basically gamist terms, much like "controller", which are things that need to be axed from the game post haste. I don't want "brute" telling me how they fight, I want some fluff telling me about them and how they fight.

(FYI, the house cat thing was mostly in jest, as they have to crit on a bite to even do damage...so in theory, unless a housecat crits a normal human 3 or 4 times, they won't go down in 3rd)

 

[Hassassin]

Minions should be revamped in 5E without the 1 hit point mechanic. It's a terrible mechanic because it has these types of gaping holes with it.

In 4E, I'd prefer minions that have 8 hit points at level one and gain 1 hit point per level. They can be one shot-ted, but sometimes are not, especially by the non-strikers. Still wimpy, but not an entirely different hit point game mechanic that's mostly there for cinematic games which not everyone wants their wimpy NPCs to emulate. Wimpy, not cardboard.

In 5e I'm hoping anyone at least X levels below you will just be a "minion" automatically, without needing an explicit template for it.

 

[Dausuul]

A 3.5 level 1 expert would have at least 6hps, which means he could at least not get one shot by a house cat.

Wow, that's the first time I've seen anyone try to deploy the house cat argument in favor of 3.5E.

In 4E, a house cat is a house cat. Unless it's a familiar or something, it doesn't have a statblock. It's not in the Monster Manual. Because it's a friggin' house cat! If it attacks you, you don't take damage, you just get scratched up a bit.

In 3.5E, a house cat is a menace to life and limb. Put it up against an average human peasant with a club (level 1 commoner, 4 hp, AC 10, +0 attack bonus) and it's got a substantial chance of killing that peasant in thirty seconds or less. Two cats and the peasant is lucky to emerge alive. Three and she's doomed.

There's a lot to be said about how silly and metagamey 4E can be, but house cats aren't in it. Both 3E and 4E suffer from the occasional failure to recognize that anything which deals damage is potentially fatal; ergo, you shouldn't have something deal damage if you don't want it killing people. The Feline Deathbot 3000 is no more nor less silly than the 4E bard who makes fun of you and you die.

 

[Klaus]

And how does this prove or disprove that in 3.5 it was "impossible" to make items unless you were a "high level npc"?

But thank you for highlighting things I dislike about 4e. Who is the blacksmith a minion of? Why is he a brute? Why can't he make armor?

Pretty impressive stat array too for a "normal" non-adventuring human. Why does he have only 1 hp but a 16 con? This is why NPCs following the same rules make sense. A 3.5 level 1 expert would have at least 6hps, which means he could at least not get one shot by a house cat.

He's a Minion Brute because, if a fight breaks out, he'll dish out a decent ammount of damage, but the first solid hit will take him out. He's not the hero of this story. If I want him to be (as someone else mentioned) the toughest guy in the village and a leader of the town watch, I'd stat him differently. But these stats are perfectly serviceable for an adventure's extras.

Why can't he make armor? Because I don't want him to. I don't need to get enough levels to justify enough ranks to reliably hit a high enough DC to have a NPC blacksmith make a suit of armor. If I (the DM) want him to make armor, I'll have him make armor. If I want him to understand the Riddle of Steel and craft weapons with such precision and focus that they are downright magical, I'll just say "he can make magic metal weapons up to level X". No need to make him an Expert, multiclass into Adept, take enough levels to have Craft Magic Arms & Armor, etc. I just write in "he can do this and that".

And still be a Level 1 human who needs the PCs' help to deal with the goblin bandit, instead of being an 8th-level human who could take out half-dozen goblins.

 

[Quickleaf]

In 4E, I'd prefer minions that have 8 hit points at level one and gain 1 hit point per level. They can be one shot-ted, but sometimes are not, especially by the non-strikers. Still wimpy, but not an entirely different hit point game mechanic that's mostly there for cinematic games which not everyone wants their wimpy NPCs to emulate. Wimpy, not cardboard.

Funny you should mention that. This is what I ended up doing for minion in 4e; well actually I gave minions HP equal to their average damage, which is 4 + 1 / 2 levels. The advantage of using this particular value has been that I almost never track minion hit points because they either go down on the first or second hit. Since I use tokens to represent minions, it's a simple matter of flipping the token to the bloodied side. That's all the tracking I usually do for minions.

Then you've got all the advantages of the monsters keying into the HP system, so there can be situations where a minion monster is dropped on a missed attack, or a fireball doesn't necessarily wipe off all the minions monsters from the field, or an NPC "minion" villager at risk of dying who needs healing.

 

[Janaxstrus]

In 5e I'm hoping anyone at least X levels below you will just be a "minion" automatically, without needing an explicit template for it.

In 5e, I'm hoping they go back to humans are humans and giving them hps commiserate with their level (or lack thereof)

 

[Hassassin]

In 5e, I'm hoping they go back to humans are humans and giving them hps commiserate with their level (or lack thereof)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you want to give the level 10 Necromancer some minions, just put in a few zombies and two 3rd level fighter bodyguards.

 

[Janaxstrus]

He's a Minion Brute because, if a fight breaks out, he'll dish out a decent ammount of damage, but the first solid hit will take him out. He's not the hero of this story. If I want him to be (as someone else mentioned) the toughest guy in the village and a leader of the town watch, I'd stat him differently. But these stats are perfectly serviceable for an adventure's extras.

Why can't he make armor? Because I don't want him to. I don't need to get enough levels to justify enough ranks to reliably hit a high enough DC to have a NPC blacksmith make a suit of armor. If I (the DM) want him to make armor, I'll have him make armor. If I want him to understand the Riddle of Steel and craft weapons with such precision and focus that they are downright magical, I'll just say "he can make magic metal weapons up to level X". No need to make him an Expert, multiclass into Adept, take enough levels to have Craft Magic Arms & Armor, etc. I just write in "he can do this and that".

And still be a Level 1 human who needs the PCs' help to deal with the goblin bandit, instead of being an 8th-level human who could take out half-dozen goblins.

You do realize the guy I showed you was a level 1 person right? Not 8?
At level 5 they can make legendary quality.

So a level 1 blacksmith who can make anything you might need, but would still need help taking on goblins. And...he follows the same rules for creating as the PCs did. It just makes more sense that a human is a human is a human, not that "well this human is a PC so he's special" Class levels and bonuses therein make him "special" not just the fact that he's not an npc.

If I just wanted to make everything up, I don't need any of the books. I can make stuff up without WotC. I buy the books for the rules, not to free form everything.

 

[dkyle]

But a minion is a devoted follower of something...

It's not an in-world term. It does not describe any social structure. It describes the combat role. Nothing more, nothing less.

Those are basically gamist terms, much like "controller", which are things that need to be axed from the game post haste. I don't want "brute" telling me how they fight, I want some fluff telling me about them and how they fight.

I can't argue your personal preference, but I can say that I greatly prefer having simple, clear mechanics and terms, that are largely divorced from setting or "fluff" assumptions. I would be very disappointed to lose that kind of terminology.

I don't need my mechanics to wholly embody the world. I just need them to describe the world, in a way that's easy to use, and understand. I much prefer to see "Brute", than have to wade through several paragraphs of prose to pick out that info. Especially when I'm using the Compendium to pick out monsters to use. It would be nearly useless without those categorizations.

(FYI, the house cat thing was mostly in jest, as they have to crit on a bite to even do damage...so in theory, unless a housecat crits a normal human 3 or 4 times, they won't go down in 3rd)

Not true. All damage rolls in 3.5 do at least 1 damage, no matter the penalties. A House-cat full-attacks for three attacks. A House-cat could win initiative against an average 1st level Wizard, and knock him out before he can act, without needing to crit. If the Wizard has already cast his spell for the day, he's unlikely to survive even if he gets a turn, unless he simply flees.