D&D 5E Something to consider about Grognards and the OGL...

[jgsugden]

I've played D&D since 1979. I've spent over 10,000 hours at the table, and more than that planning, on message boards, painting minis, and just talking about the major hobby of my life. I've used the game to create fun for my friends, my family, and perfect strangers. I've used it to create fictional campaign settings filled with inside jokes, to slow build revelations (one in particular was nearly 40 years in the making), and invest decades of my creative juices. D&D is the cornerstone of something that is very personal, very meaningful, and very important to me.

Yes, I can lift and shift most of that and use it in a new system. I've done that in every edition after all. However, even if I do so - there is a real emotional attachment to it being D&D. When people asked me about it, I did not describe it as an RPG game - I said it was a D&D game. And, as much as I defined it, the things that took place in D&D also shaped and defined me in so many ways - in terms of fostering creativity, in making friendships, and in teaching life skills. Despite how much the game has changed - it has always been D&D, and I've had a 'next D&D game' on my schedule every moment of my life since the early 80s. I've long imagined a day when I was retired in a community sitting around a table with 4 or 5 people playing D&D. It has been a huge part of my past, present and the vision of my future.

So now, when everyone talks about murdering the game, about the death of D&D, about where to walk to when stepping over the corpse of D&D - remember that there are people that have a real emotional investment in D&D - and no matter how this shakes out, they're taking a huge hit these days. Even if a 3rd party comes out with an amazing game - far better than any edition of D&D has ever been - some of them are going to feel the loss of the name D&D, and the continuity of their experience over the decades.

This isn't going to be how everyone feels - but some of us are feeling a real pain over this situation. I'm just asking people to consider that when they write about the situation.

 

[overgeeked]

I started playing with Moldvay Basic in '84, switched to AD&D shortly thereafter and stuck with AD&D until 4E (skipping 2E and 3X), played the heck out of that, and played 5E since the play test. I've also played every other RPG I could get a group for that was even half-way interesting to me in that time. I've also had (almost) monthly games of D&D since '84.

So while I can appreciate your stance, I don't share it. I'm not attached to D&D as a brand. I'm attached to RPGs as a hobby. Though D&D was the first, it's not the only. To me, that special something was never D&D, rather it was always RPGs in general.

 

[Clint_L]

Well said! It really bothers me when D&D is conflated with Hasbro or WotC, or even TSR (which is still the first corporate name that comes to my mind when I think of D&D, because I too started in 1979). D&D is a lot bigger than the current owners of the trademark, and this is not even close to the first controversy that it has weathered.

I've written about this before: I sponsor the D&D Club at my school. When I think of D&D, I of course think of my own history with it, but these days I primarily think of the incredibly positive impact it has had on a lot of kids that I have worked with and often for whom I was their first DM. These are prevalently kids without big social groups. Many of them are neuro-divergent. There's a huge overlap with the Pride Club. This is a game that brings together a lot of people who really need friends and connections.

Attacking WotC/Hasbro/Paizo/whoever - I could care less. But attacking D&D feels personal.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

If we switch over to Pathfinder or any other system for medieval fantasy roleplaying, I will happily call my game "D&D", and good luck to anyone disagreeing.

 

[ninjayeti]

I am not saying you are wrong for having an emotional attachment to a name or brand. Lots of people remain fiercely loyal to a sports team, even though over time it changes players, coaches, uniforms, stadiums and even cities - literally the only thing that remains the same over time is the name. So you are hardly alone.

But of course what you valued about those experiences you described had absolutely nothing to do with the particular brand or set of rules your were using at the time. Giving up a particular brand of RPG (if you choose to do so) doesn't mean turning your back on that history or giving up on those future plans. It just means changing the label you use to categorize them. As usual Bill Shakespeare said it best: a rose by any other name smells as sweet. Those experiences are just as powerful and meaningful to you whatever label you use.

At the end of the day "Dungeons & Dragons" is a IP owned by a corporation. The community who put their passion into the game never had any say over how it was used. What the community does control is the love, passion, and creativity we have poured into the game. I think now more than ever we need to make clear that no corporation can own that.

 

[overgeeked]

If we switch over to Pathfinder or any other system for medieval fantasy roleplaying, I will happily call my game "D&D", and good luck to anyone disagreeing.

Yeah, we're about to start a new D&D campaign that uses Dungeon Crawl Classics as the rules.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I started in 1981. For me, the term "D&D" isn't just a version of a game, it's a community. Because it's what we all rallied around in the 80s during the satanic panic. it was the sense of belonging as a kid when every other group wouldn't have us. So I agree with the OP, for me, it means more than just a game. Even when I kept playing AD&D and ignored 3e and 4e, I was still part of the D&D community, not just the RPG community.

 

[el-remmen]

I too have such an attachment, which is why even if I end up playing with another ruleset I will inevitably port things over from one or more editions of D&D, and no matter what it is called, I will still call it (and think of it as) D&D.

 

[DND_Reborn]

D&D isn't just a game, it is a mindset.

 

[J.Quondam]

If we switch over to Pathfinder or any other system for medieval fantasy roleplaying, I will happily call my game "D&D", and good luck to anyone disagreeing.

Yep. We played PF1e for 10 years, and it was always "Are we on for D&D next Sunday?"
A nephew saw my Old School Essentials books the other day and asked about them. I said "Oh, those are D&D books."
And next time I teach D&D, I'll likely use Bugbears & Borderlands.

So yeah: D&D is whatever we say it is, not what has the correct "ampersand" on it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This isn't going to be how everyone feels - but some of us are feeling a real pain over this situation. I'm just asking people to consider that when they write about the situation.

And, if people can, it would be nice to extend such a favor to every flavor of D&D--whether or not it's a flavor you recognize as D&D or not.

 

[Lanefan]

So now, when everyone talks about murdering the game, about the death of D&D, about where to walk to when stepping over the corpse of D&D - remember that there are people that have a real emotional investment in D&D - and no matter how this shakes out, they're taking a huge hit these days. Even if a 3rd party comes out with an amazing game - far better than any edition of D&D has ever been - some of them are going to feel the loss of the name D&D, and the continuity of their experience over the decades.

No matter how much I/we end up mangling the 1e AD&D system into unrecognizability to suit our needs/desires I for one will still call it D&D, much like I call a tissue a kleenex even when it's some other brand.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Are your feeling valid? They totally are!
Are there enough people who share your feelings that the game and community will bend towards your desires? Probably not.

 

[Retreater]

Dude, it if you're a grognard it hasn't been D&D since 2000 when it was purchased by a mega corp.
What was D&D died with 3rd edition. Then that died again with 4e.
5e is a simulacrum of the old way. Twenty years ago, someone spent millions of dollars to use the trademarked brand name, but all of us who were there know that it hasn't been the same D&D for decades.
All this is fine. It's just not the same.

 

[Lichbeard]

Dude, it if you're a grognard it hasn't been D&D since 2000 when it was purchased by a mega corp.
What was D&D died with 3rd edition. Then that died again with 4e.
5e is a simulacrum of the old way. Twenty years ago, someone spent millions of dollars to use the trademarked brand name, but all of us who were there know that it hasn't been the same D&D for decades.
All this is fine. It's just not the same.

Heck most of the time when we played Pathfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, 5E or Rifts we just say D&D.

D&D to a lot of people has nothing to do with WOTC.

sure, it's also a brand I guess but for a lot of people it's just role-playing games.

That is a great benefit for the company that owns it I guess but it isn't that big a deal.

If we never played another WOTC game in our lives

it wouldn't stop next Fridays D&D game.

 

[Kai Lord]

Dude, it if you're a grognard it hasn't been D&D since 2000 when it was purchased by a mega corp.
What was D&D died with 3rd edition. Then that died again with 4e.
5e is a simulacrum of the old way. Twenty years ago, someone spent millions of dollars to use the trademarked brand name, but all of us who were there know that it hasn't been the same D&D for decades.
All this is fine. It's just not the same.

Yeah, there's a difference between an actual grognard who still plays 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D (and won't be impacted by current events either way) and a longtime gamer who just plays whatever current iteration/reimagining that is released by the corporate IP holder.

 

[payn]

Fortunately, I have no real attachment to the name brand D&D. Although, for folks worried about it, the game will never die. Popularity will ebb and flow, but you will always be able to buy products and play D&D with folks.

 

[Clint_L]

Dude, it if you're a grognard it hasn't been D&D since 2000 when it was purchased by a mega corp.
What was D&D died with 3rd edition. Then that died again with 4e.
5e is a simulacrum of the old way. Twenty years ago, someone spent millions of dollars to use the trademarked brand name, but all of us who were there know that it hasn't been the same D&D for decades.
All this is fine. It's just not the same.

Speaking for yourself, you mean. And that's fine. Please don't pretend to speak for me, because I don't agree with you, and my Grognard credentials are pretty impeccable. Don't "no true Scotsman" me!

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I've played D&D since 1979. I've spent over 10,000 hours at the table, and more than that planning, on message boards, painting minis, and just talking about the major hobby of my life. I've used the game to create fun for my friends, my family, and perfect strangers. I've used it to create fictional campaign settings filled with inside jokes, to slow build revelations (one in particular was nearly 40 years in the making), and invest decades of my creative juices. D&D is the cornerstone of something that is very personal, very meaningful, and very important to me.

Yes, I can lift and shift most of that and use it in a new system. I've done that in every edition after all. However, even if I do so - there is a real emotional attachment to it being D&D. When people asked me about it, I did not describe it as an RPG game - I said it was a D&D game. And, as much as I defined it, the things that took place in D&D also shaped and defined me in so many ways - in terms of fostering creativity, in making friendships, and in teaching life skills. Despite how much the game has changed - it has always been D&D, and I've had a 'next D&D game' on my schedule every moment of my life since the early 80s. I've long imagined a day when I was retired in a community sitting around a table with 4 or 5 people playing D&D. It has been a huge part of my past, present and the vision of my future.

So now, when everyone talks about murdering the game, about the death of D&D, about where to walk to when stepping over the corpse of D&D - remember that there are people that have a real emotional investment in D&D - and no matter how this shakes out, they're taking a huge hit these days. Even if a 3rd party comes out with an amazing game - far better than any edition of D&D has ever been - some of them are going to feel the loss of the name D&D, and the continuity of their experience over the decades.

This isn't going to be how everyone feels - but some of us are feeling a real pain over this situation. I'm just asking people to consider that when they write about the situation.

Hey JGSugden, I feel you. You said it really well, and with heart.

I started playing D&D when two older cousins (girls) visited and tried to teach me Moldvay BASIC, when I was like 8 years old. Then I got Mentzer Red Box for Christmas 1983, and I never looked back. Despite hiatuses, I've always been a D&D aficionado. And have served as the primary DM of our D&D Club for years. Furthermore, I do love the D&D Multiverse and its specific characters and history. Bargle and Aleena. Yeah, even Drizzt Do'urden. Tasslehof and all the Companions of the Lance.

I've personally interviewed many of the early D&D designers (you can see my collected interviews here). I'm the one who, a couple years ago, went out to Akron Ohio in a snowstorm and met with Bill Wilkerson, one of the players in Tom Moldvay's home campaign, and secured photocopies of the Original Known World campaign notes, which then made ENWorld news.

And yet...I'm walking away. Walking away from purchasing new WOTC products. Do I mourn and grieve? Yeah.

I like where previous posters shared how they just call "D&D" whatever fantasy RPG they happen to be playing. Same with us. We did play 5E for a couple years, but then we got tired of the minutiae and wonky bits, and, after trying out various OSR rulesets, settled on our own homebrew nearly mechanicless system. It's totally freeform, except that I occasionally call for a symbolic d20 check, sometimes with Advantage or Disadvantage. And the DC is always 10! We don't keep track of hitpoints or anything.

But it's the same characters and parties and world which began back in 5E. Just expressed through different rules.

And the super simplified character sheets I make, I cut and paste a 1980's D&D logo on it. And newcomers literally take it as D&D.

Because, it is!

In various official D&D publications, it says each DM and group is free to modify the rules. And we have!

Even when the rulebooks we're using have a different brand printed on them: The Black Hack, or White Box, or Heroes & Monsters, or Pathfinder, we consider ourselves to just actually be playing our own selection of D&D rules.

As for mourning for the D&D novels, my vow still allows for me to purchase used copies. So I'll still get old Dragonlance novels I'm sure. Just not new copies. Bummer for online audiobooks though. But I realize as I type this, that I'd like to try a Pathfinder novel, or something like that, and branch into other (non-D&D branded but actually 'spiritually' D&D) worlds of characters.

We all love the game, no matter what label is printed on it. It can all be "D&D" at our tables.

Buddy, keep your chin up. Let's encourage each other and take care of the party, no matter how this big adventure of Hasbro vs. the World turns out.

 

[Reynard]

What was D&D died with 3rd edition.

Opinions vary. 3E felt a hell of a lot more like D&D than late 2E did to me.