D&D 5E Something to consider about Grognards and the OGL...

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I think the only edition of DnD that didn't quite feel like DnD to me was 4e. I still thought it had some great stuff but it just didn't feel right. Meanwhile, pathfinder (both editions), ACKS, all other editions, WoW d20, Conan d20, Astonishing swordsmen and sorcerers of Hyperborea, and likely a host more, all felt like DnD.

Obviously it is different for everyone, but 4e felt like D&D to us. In fact, it is the edition that brought us back to D&D after skipping 2e and 3e.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I think the only edition of DnD that didn't quite feel like DnD to me was 4e. I still thought it had some great stuff but it just didn't feel right. Meanwhile, pathfinder (both editions), ACKS, all other editions, WoW d20, Conan d20, Astonishing swordsmen and sorcerers of Hyperborea, and likely a host more, all felt like DnD.

I think the aspect of 4E which informed its design (that was not present in those other games) was the utter dominance of World of Warcraft at the time.

That, in turn, had an element of play balance between classes that D&D had never had before. There, the point was to balance the party vs the monsters, not members of the party vs each other -- as was one of the balancing factors inherent in PvP play in WoW class design. Diablo influence? Same thing.

I would not pooh-pooh that aspect of things too much. It always in vogue and garners much grognard street cred to dismiss 4e as "video-gamey" with a sneer.

Yeah, well, we might get some of this back in future editions, too. The game is bigger than any of us (it's bigger than WotC, too). And these things can have a rhythm.

 

[jgsugden]

I get the emotional investment, but I might suggest you have misplaced it a bit. D&D the Game, is just that, a game: some published rules in a book. Just some text on a page.

You do not understand what I am saying. That may be all it is to you. For others, it is far more.

What you really have the connection to is what you have made with the game: thousands of memories. What you have made from some rules on a page. No one can touch that.

That is part of it, but you're oversimplifying long standing emotional attachment to something. My request was that you consider that there is more to this - emotionally - for people than you are recognizing.

 

[bloodtide]

You do not understand what I am saying. That may be all it is to you. For others, it is far more.

That is part of it, but you're oversimplifying long standing emotional attachment to something. My request was that you consider that there is more to this - emotionally - for people than you are recognizing.

I also see you don't understand, or something more. So that just leaves it as it is.

 

[Clint_L]

I would not pooh-pooh that aspect of things too much. It always in vogue and garners much grognard street cred to dismiss 4e as "video-gamey" with a sneer.

See? I am a grognard!

Though I also played the hell out of World of Warcraft.

 

[cbwjm]

I would not pooh-pooh that aspect of things too much. It always in vogue and garners much grognard street cred to dismiss 4e as "video-gamey" with a sneer.

It would have made a great video game though. Thinking of games like final fantasy tactics, 4e would have been a mean version of that. I was always disappointed that a decent 4e game focusing on the tactical side of combat where it excelled didn't show up.

 

[TerraDave]

I have played through all editions and put up with a lot from the company that makes it.

I mentioned T&R in another thread, and still remember reading the Dragon were Gygax revealed that he had left the company.

The name on the tin might matter. D&D current popularity and recognition is great, or at least it was until a few weeks ago. Its actually not going away, its just lost some of its sheen, as it has many time before.

But at some point you become a true grognard, and decide that what you have is enough, and you don't need more from that company. Not clear if I am there yet or not.

 

[Clint_L]

It would have made a great video game though. Thinking of games like final fantasy tactics, 4e would have been a mean version of that. I was always disappointed that a decent 4e game focusing on the tactical side of combat where it excelled didn't show up.

Wizkids just released a tabletop skirmish game called Onslaught that apparently is pretty influenced by the 4e rules.

 

[Voadam]

Been through this type of stuff before with WotC and their pendulum swings.

4e they cut off access to the old edition PDFs they had been selling to try and direct everyone to buy the new books any way they could including cutting off old D&D stuff. There was even the corporate messaging misdirection "We are cutting off legal PDF sales to combat piracy!" Which left only pirate copies if you wanted PDFs. This significantly ticked me off, I had been regularly buying D&D PDFs from WotC and they cut that off in an attempt to control where I spent my money, an attempt to drive my purchases to the new edition physical books. I instead switched to just buying other companies' PDFs and continuing to play 3.5 D&D.

4e also had no OGL, so you couldn't use an SRD to get into the new edition the way you could with 3.5, you had to buy the books first to check out the edition. So I didn't, I kept playing what I had and buying stuff from other companies. In 3.0 and 3.5 I was using the SRD as a player and DM and buying stuff from WotC and their licensees (Ravenloft stuff from Arthaus), plus OGL stuff. WotC was making it more difficult to get in as a D&D player so they could try and control more of the market and extract more money from customers. I was angry at them and chose to spend my money elsewhere.

Eventually they had the GSL which initially had a poison pill clause to cut out old and new OGL stuff. Later once nobody picked it up, they revised the license to remove the poison pill clause and just have terrible revocable and changeable terms at any time for WotC to control stuff heavily. A few started to use this license, but it was very few and fairly limited especially compared to the 3.5 OGL output at the time. So I was not tempted by a lot of GSL stuff, I kept spending money on OGL and non-D&D PDFs.

Eventually they had a PDF with basic rules out so you could check out the 4e system. I did and liked it. Once I joined a group that was playing 4e I bought an amazon deal on the first two PHs and enjoyed the system. I am a fan of the 4e rules system. I still spent a lot of my RPG budget on OGL and non-D&D stuff in the 4e era because of the lack of 4e PDFs and limited GSL PDFs.

Eventually WotC reinstated most D&D PDFs on DriveThru (but not on Paizo), and with 5e they eventually made it OGL with a bare bones SRD so there is a lot of great 5e OGL material. I like 5e and these were positive steps in the right direction for me.

Now we are back to WotC being adversarial to me as a customer, trying to actively cut off stuff I like and want so they can exert more control over the market and attempt to extract more money from their customers.

 

[DarkCrisis]

D&D isn't going anywhere. The Internet isn't real life.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If you're a grognard, D&D died when they put Advanced in front of it....people have been saying the latest iteration of D&D isn't true D&D since there was a second iteration of it, if not before.

Dude, it if you're a grognard it hasn't been D&D since 2000 when it was purchased by a mega corp.
What was D&D died with 3rd edition. Then that died again with 4e.
5e is a simulacrum of the old way. Twenty years ago, someone spent millions of dollars to use the trademarked brand name, but all of us who were there know that it hasn't been the same D&D for decades.
All this is fine. It's just not the same.

When I've got drawers filled with D&D-themed t-shirts, can listen to D&D-themed music, make D&D-themed cocktails and foods, read books about D&D, the distinction between it and other sub-cultures is very thin, if at all existent. My battlevest has a Green Devil Face patch not far below a Dio patch.

The term you were looking for is sub-culture.

At WotC the term that has previously been used to describe hardcore gamers is "lifestyle players"

 

[overgeeked]

If you're a grognard, D&D died when they put Advanced in front of it....people have been saying the latest iteration of D&D isn't true D&D since there was a second iteration of it, if not before.

True. I've actually heard people say, "Anything not in the original LBB is not real D&D."

When I've got drawers filled with D&D-themed t-shirts, can listen to D&D-themed music, make D&D-themed cocktails and foods, read books about D&D, the distinction between it and other sub-cultures is very thin, if at all existent. My battlevest has a Green Devil Face patch not far below a Dio patch.

The best kind of vest.

 

[Voadam]

If you're a grognard, D&D died when they put Advanced in front of it....people have been saying the latest iteration of D&D isn't true D&D since there was a second iteration of it, if not before.

Thieves in Greyhawk ruined D&D. Percentile strength was pretty terrible as well.

 

[JAMUMU]

Like many of you, I also started playing D&D in the early 1800s. I remember raiding a stately home to steal the first table we played around, smuggling barrels of dice into shady coves to avoid paying the King's Tax and kidnapping a literate clerk to read out the rules for us. I remember when the players had roles, like mapper, caller, and the guy who was the lookout in case Redcoats appeared. I remember D&D when if your character failed a saving throw against disease, the player had to contract that disease too. Many of us didn't make it out, and those who did had terrible skin.

And then the game changed, and changed again, and changed again, but it was always the game. It was the life. It was always D&D.

What WotC might be proposing is to turn D&D into something that is no longer the game; something that's no longer D&D. Not to the scurvy grogs and dogs that sit around our table, anyway.

 

[cbwjm]

If you're a grognard, D&D died when they put Advanced in front of it....people have been saying the latest iteration of D&D isn't true D&D since there was a second iteration of it, if not before.

I've read some of the Dragon forum letters from back when 2e was announced, a lot of people complaining about the new edition, though some were in support. I wonder how many more complaint letters they had that they didn't publish.

 

[TolkienThePiss]

D&D died when they stopped including Parasitic Infestation tables in the DMG!

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Not going to deny that percentile strength, as much as it takes me back, was a bad idea.

Thieves in Greyhawk ruined D&D. Percentile strength was pretty terrible as well.

I can't imagine the complaint letters Dragon magazine got over the years. During the Satanic Panic depths, that would've been something else.

I've read some of the Dragon forum letters from back when 2e was announced, a lot of people complaining about the new edition, though some were in support. I wonder how many more complaint letters they had that they didn't publish.

 

[GuyBoy]

Played D&D since 1976 and still playing it now.
It matters little to me whether I’m playing the TSR editions ( though never NuTSR!), WOTC, Pathfinder, Kobold Press, Level Up: in all cases, I’m playing D&D. Always will be.
I’m invested in the spirit of the game, in its history and in all the memories it has given me.
The debacle of WOTC’s actions recently have been painful to watch but they will never kill D&D.

 

[MichaelSomething]

They should have kept the Gygaxian balance they already had! Spell components, d4 hit dice, more round long casting times, different exp requirements, dangerous spell drawbacks, and no at will cantrips! Now that's D&D!

I think the aspect of 4E which informed its design (that was not present in those other games) was the utter dominance of World of Warcraft at the time.

That, in turn, had an element of play balance between classes that D&D had never had before. There, the point was to balance the party vs the monsters, not members of the party vs each other -- as was one of the balancing factors inherent in PvP play in WoW class design. Diablo influence? Same thing.

I would not pooh-pooh that aspect of things too much. It always in vogue and garners much grognard street cred to dismiss 4e as "video-gamey" with a sneer.

Yeah, well, we might get some of this back in future editions, too. The game is bigger than any of us (it's bigger than WotC, too). And these things can have a rhythm.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I love that after about the first dozen comments of support for this guy opening up about how HE feels about D&D, the thread rapidly slid down towards edition wars and 'it hasn't been D&D since it was bought and turned into yaddayaddayadda'.

That's the gaming community online these days, I guess.