Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[Khaalis]

REVISION UPDATE 2.26
(Edits)

This is an alternate version of the base Sorcerer class as presented in the 3.5 Edition Player’s Handbook. The current version of the Sorcerer has very little to do with the material provided in the class description. This alternate version of the sorcerer is designed to allow for a sorcerer mechanic that matches the descriptions of the class as described in the Player’s Handbook, and that is to show a link between the sorcerer’s abilities and their heritage as well as to give the sorcerer more balance with the other core classes.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sorcerers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma determines the effectiveness of a Sorcerer’s magic. To cast spells, a Sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 10+ the spell’s level. Sorcerers gain bonus spells based upon Charisma. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against a Sorcerer’s spells is 10 + Spell Level + Sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS
The class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
Skill Points for 1st Level: (2+INT modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+INT modifier

BAB: Poor
SAVES: Will Good
1….. Aura, Lineage, Spells
2….. -----
3….. Arcane Sense
4….. -----
5….. Item Familiar
6….. -----
7….. Innate Ability (1st)
8….. -----
9….. Lineage Ability
10… -----
11… Innate Ability (2nd)
12… -----
13… -----
14… Innate Ability (3rd)
15… -----
16… -----
17… Improved Lineage Ability
18… -----
19… -----
20… Greater Lineage Ability

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features for the Sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers have more time to study the art of fighting skills. Though not highly skilled, sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons but not with light armor nor with shields.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list though some sorcerers have access to “spells” from other spell lists where it is appropriate to their lineage and archetype. They can cast any spell they know without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
..........To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
..........Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Their base daily spell allotment is given on “Table 3-16: The Sorcerer” in the Player’s Handbook. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
..........A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Sorcerer begins play knowing six 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of their choice. At each new sorcerer level, they gain 2 new spells. These spells may be acquired from any spell level that they currently may utilize, but only one may be applied to the highest spell level the sorcerer has access to.
..........Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
..........Sorcerer spells can also grow in time and evolve into more powerful versions of old spells. This is referred to as Spell Evolution. This concept is based on the concept of spell paths (by Sean K. Reynolds), a series of spells that build and grow upon the same basic premise. When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell-path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell. They may then fill the abandoned spell slot with another spell that is available to them of the same spell level. A sorcerer can only upgrade one spell in this manner at any given level, even if they have multiple options for upgrading.
[Example: Vond is a Sor5 who knows the invisibility spell. Upon reaching Sor6 he chooses to acquire a new 3rd-level spell known as one of his 2 new spells. Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell on the “Path of Invisibility” and invisibility sphere is a 3rd-level spell on that spell-path. Vond decides to upgrade his invisibility to invisibility sphere, which uses his new 3rd-level spell known slot. However, he now has an open spell known slot at 2nd level (formerly occupied by invisibility), which he may use to learn any other 2nd-level spell available to him.]
..........Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
.......... Also unlike wizards or cleric, the sorcerer’s innate magic serves as the material focus for most of their common spells, thus becoming their own material component. As such the sorcerer can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1gp or less without needing that component and without harm to themselves. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1gp, the sorcerer must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, or they choose to sacrifice a part of their essence to channel the spell. This essence takes the form of an XP cost paid at 1/25 of the gold cost of the material component or focus (minimum XP cost of 1XP). Spells that already require the expenditure of XP are handled normally.

Aura (Ex): Sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate raw magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer is of a lineage that lends them to a specific type of magic that can be read with detect magic, such as a General Abjurer Sorcerer will radiate an abjuration aura. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).

Lineage: Each sorcerer’s magic is different and unique and manifests differently with them. Some sorcerer’s magical lineage is so lost in the ancient past that the power manifests in a focus more appropriate to the sorcerers personality and character. In some sorcerers however, their magical lineage runs so strongly in them that it influences the sorcerer and their magic. Each sorcerer chooses a lineage for their sorcerer. The sorcerer’s lineage choice influences how their magic and abilities manifests within them. Once the sorcerer has chosen a lineage they gain a set of abilities from that lineage that take effect as follows: Lineage Gift at 1st, Lineage Ability at 9th and Improved Lineage Ability at 17th and Greater Lineage Ability at 20th level. See “Table: Sorcerer Lineages” for the details of the sorcerer lineages.

Arcane Sense (Sp): The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 3rd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

Item Familiar: The sorcerer, upon reaching 5th level, gains the Item Familiar feat as a bonus feat. (Source: Unearthed Arcana p.170)

Innate Ability (Sp): The sorcerer is a manifestation of innate magic prowess. This innate magic grows in them slowly and eventually becomes a part of them. At 7th level, the sorcerer’s 1st level lineage spell becomes a spell-like ability, that may be used a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus. This does not count against the sorcerer's spells per day. The spell-like ability is used at the sorcerer's character level (including any caster level bonus from the sorcerer's Affinity). The spell-like ability's saving throw DC (if applicable) is Charisma based.
.......... When this lineage spell becomes a spell-like ability, the sorcerer “loses” the spell as a known spell. This leaves the sorcerer with one less spell known slot for that spell level. The spell has evolved into a true innate ability.
..........If the spell-like ability spell has an XP component, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost each time they use the spell-like ability. If the spell-like ability spell has a material component with negligible cost (under 1gp), they do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component for which a gold piece value is given, the sorcerer needs that component to use the spell-like ability.
..........Since this is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, it cannot be convert into any other spell nor given up to pay a spell slot cost, nor can it be converted to a signature spell.
..........As a spell-like ability, the Innate Ability is not subject to metamagic feats which affect spells. However, the sorcerer can learn metamagic feats which affect spell-like abilities, such as Empower Spell-like Ability and Quicken Spell-like Ability (see Chapter 6 of the Monster Manual).
..........At 11th level, the sorcerer’s 2nd level lineage spell evolves into a spell-like ability, and at 14th level, the sorcerer’s 3rd level lineage spell evolves into a spell-like ability

Perfect Self (Su): REMOVED

SIDE NOTE​

Another possible trim down of the Progression, if the previous is too much with a 3rd level innate lineage spell-like ability, is as follows.

1….. Aura, Lineage, Spells
2….. -----
3….. Arcane Sense
4….. -----
5….. Item Familiar
6….. -----
7….. -----
8….. Innate Ability (1st)
9….. -----
10… -----
11… Lineage Ability
12… -----
13… -----
14… Innate Ability (2nd)
15… -----
16… -----
17… Improved Lineage Ability
18… -----
19… -----
20… Greater Lineage Ability

 

[fuindordm]

OK, Khaalis. This is a version that I would consider balanced against the PH.

Let's start defining some lineage abilities.

Child of Nature (fey lineage):
Spell selection: access to all spells w/ Animal or Plant descriptors; all the
Summon Nature's Ally Spells; no evocation or necromancy school spells.
Wilderness Lore and Knowledge: Nature are class skills; Sylvan bonus language
Lineage gift: resist nature's lure
Lineage ability: +2 DC to enchantment or illusion schools (pick one)
Improved Lineage Ability: Wild shape 1x/day
20th level: Change to Fey type, gain DR 10/cold iron
Domain: Speak w/ Animals, Animal Messenger, Tree Shape, Charm Monster,
Baleful Polymorph, Geas, Commune w/ Nature, Animate Plants, Animal Shapes

Celestial Scion:
Spell selection: access to all spells w/ Good descriptor; no [Evil] or necromancy spells.
Knowledge: Religion is a class skill, Celestial is a bonus language.
Lineage gift: smite evil 1x/day
Lineage ability: Prot. from Evil aura always in effect for the sorcerer only.
Improved: spell smite: the smite effect can be added to any spell for bonus damage vs. evil creatures.
20th level: Prot. from Evil bonuses increase to +4, becomes magic circle.
Domain: Prot. Evil, Aid, Daylight, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Planar Ally,
Holy Word, Holy Aura, Gate

etc...

--Ben

 

[Khaalis]

Appendix - Lineages

Ok, lets start out small, with just one. 20th level abilities are all variants on Perfect Self.


GENERAL LINEAGE: The sorcerer's magical lineage is so old or so mixed that it has no overtly obvious source and takes on a more broad effect for the sorcerer.

Benefit: Gain the Sorcerous Metamagic Ability. Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.

Special Limitation: Sorcerers of this lineage, though adept at a certain style of magic, are also inept in some areas. The sorcerer must choose any one school of magic that they cannot cast spells from, use spell-like abilities from or use spell completion or spell trigger items from. This school of choice can be any school other than Divination or Universal.

Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity for a theme of magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer chooses one affinity from the following choices.
Abjuration: 0-resistance; 1st-shield; 2nd-resist energy; 3rd-dispel magic; 4th-remove curse; 5th-Mordenkainen’s private sanctum; 6th-greater dispel magic; 7th-banishment; 8th-mind blank; 9th-prismatic sphere
Antimagic: 0-detect magic; 1st-protection from chaos/good/evil/law; 2nd-obscure object; 3rd-dispel magic; 4th-minor globe of invulnerability; 5th-break enchantment; 6th-antimagic field; 7th-spell turning; 8th-protection from spells; 9th-Mordenkainen's disjunction
Battle: 0-daze; 1st-true strike; 2nd-protection from arrows; 3rd-greater magic weapon; 4th-fire shield; 5th-Bigby's interposing hand; 6th-Tenser's transformation; 7th-power word blind; 8th-moment of prescience; 9th-time stop
Conjuration: 0-acud splash; 1st-mage armor; 2nd-web; 3rd-stinking cloud; 4th-summon monster IV; 5th-wall of stone; 6th-acid fog; 7th-summon monster VII; 8th-maze; 9th-gate
Divination: 0-read magic; 1st-detect secret doors; 2nd-see invisibility; 3rd-arcane sight; 4th-arcane eye; 5th-prying eyes; 6th-true seeing; 7th-greater arcane sight; 8th-discern location; 9th-foresight
Enchantment: 0-daze; 1st-charm person; 2nd-Tasha’s hideous laughter; 3rd-suggestion; 4th-confusion; 5th-hold monster; 6th-greater heroism; 7th-insanity; 8th-mass charm monster; 9th-dominate monster
Evocation: 0-light; 1st-magic missile; 2nd-flaming sphere; 3rd-lightning bolt; 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphere; 9th-Bigby’s crushing hand
Illusion: 0-ghost sound; 1st-disguise self; 2nd-invisibility; 3rd-major image; 4th-phantasmal killer; 5th-shadow evocation; 6th-mislead; 7th-mass invisibility; 8th-scintillating pattern; 9th-shades
Necromancy: 0-disrupt undead; 1st-ray of enfeeblement; 2nd-false life; 3rd-vampiric touch; 4th-fear; 5th-waves of fatigue; 6th-circle of death; 7th-control undead; 8th-horrid wilting; 9th-energy drain
Transmutation: 0-mage hand; 1st-expeditious retreat; 2nd-levitate; 3rd-haste; 4th-polymorph; 5th-baleful polymorph; 6th-disintegrate; 7th-reverse gravity; 8th-iron body; 9th-shapechange
Travel: 0-know direction; 1st-long strider; 2nd-levitate; 3rd-fly; 4th-dimension door; 5th-teleport; 6th-shadow walk; 7th-teleport, greater; 8th-plane shift; 9th-gate

Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 9th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level.
.....At 17th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.
.....At 20th level, a general sorcerer becomes a magical creature gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as a coloration not normal to their species or perhaps a definitive streak of off-color hair or even a mystical tattoo-like symbol. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the general sorcerer gains the following benefits.
• Darkvision out to 60’.
• Spell resistance increases to 35.
• Gain Damage Reduction (Su): Grants damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction.
• Gain a second Sorcerous Metamagic Use virtual feat (see “Benefits”).
.....Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

 

[Halma]

This all looks great. My only issue is that the lineages seem to steam roll a player into a specialist sorcerer. Will there be a choice in your lineages to allow for the Generalist Sorcerer? One that does not need to specialize?


Halma

 

[Khaalis]

This all looks great. My only issue is that the lineages seem to steam roll a player into a specialist sorcerer. Will there be a choice in your lineages to allow for the Generalist Sorcerer? One that does not need to specialize?

In what way do you see the generalist as specialized? Because they have to choose one school they cannot cast from?

Asside from one restricted school, the class still has the exact same flexibility it had before. You will still be choosing exactly the same number of known spells from wherever you want to choose them except from one school. On top of that you are gaining a theme of "bonus spells known" that represent a specific talent the sorcerer has a knack for. This doesnt mean that they HAVE to any learn those spells and spells like them. You could take the Evocation path, have Necromancy as a banned school, but chose to learn all Illusion spells if you wanted to.

The loss of one school also helps to limit the sorcerer's spell list, something that many people said they wanted to see, even on a generalist sorcerer.

Considering the benefits gained, I think the banned school is a pretty fair cost. However, with that said, if anyone can think of a better cost for a generalist to balance the benefits... its not set in stone yet.

Thoughts?

 

[Stalker0]

Considering the benefits gained, I think the banned school is a pretty fair cost. However, with that said, if anyone can think of a better cost for a generalist to balance the benefits... its not set in stone yet.

Thoughts?

Its a fair cost, but not necessarily a good one.

Limiting the options for the general sorc.... makes them a specialized one, you can't get around that.

General sorcs should have access to all schools. I think that has to be paramont. Its a condition that cannot be compromised.

Here's my suggestion, the general sorc still gets as many spells known as a lineage sorc, but instead of the lineage spells he can choose any sorc spell as the new spell. Also, the generalist gets NO lineage abilities, perhaps you can give him more of the metamagic feats as he goes up but that's it.

And to what you say, but they aren't as powerful as the lineages. AND that's exactly correct!! A specialist should be more powerful than a generalist. A specialist suffers because he has restrictions on his abilities, and often penalities for his choice (such as alignment restrictions). The generalist has versatility and customability, and those cannot be overlooked. In my mind, a player shouldn't look at the generalist and say, "I want those abilities!!!" He should say, "I want the generalist because I don't want to give up flexibility, or because I don't want to have to pick those spells, or because I don't want those penalities, I want a customable sorc!!"

This also brings up another idea, how about we don't just include abilities with the lineages, but at the same level, they gain a penalty that increase with time. For example, for the feyborn one, they gain the fey's weakness to cold iron, but since they don't have DR it reflects in a different way. Either they take extra damage from cold iron weapons, or their spells are weakened when they are near cold iron (think superman).

Now that's flavor!!! Void the feyborn, one of the strongest sorcs of his time, is confronted by an covered assailant. "I know your weakness now, you will pay for killing my master, you will die and he will rise again!!." - as he takes the cover off as cold iron shield that weakens Voids powers.

In my mind, that's the idea of specialization, you gain, and you lose. Buts gains have flavor, and loses have flavor. Gains balance loses, but you get double the flavor. Ain't math grand?

 

[Stalker0]

BTW, why the reduction in skill points? I thought that was a generally accepted mechanic that everyone liked.

 

[Khaalis]

Its a fair cost, but not necessarily a good one.{snipage}
In my mind, that's the idea of specialization, you gain, and you lose.

The only problem here is that this isn’t a Generalist vs. Specialist debate. The Generalist (which may be a horrible name at this point) is still a “generalist” in every extent except the banned school – which I agree is not the best answer – but I am lacking for a better option right now, short of simply giving the abilities that they have right now with No restrictions – which just might work considering how weak the “General” sorcerer’s abilities are before 20th level.

There IS one point we agree on. There are certain things that can’t be compromised. Those things are:
1) First and foremost you are right - A generalist needs to feel like a generalist. Thus none of the abilities are specialist in nature.
2) Secondly but just as importantly the generalist sorcerer HAS to get abilities. The ones they get now are about as generic and Un-flavorful as you can get, but they have to get them or the entire build goes out the window. Rule 1 = Consistency in balance.
3) Thirdly, a Sorcerer in this build needs to have some form of theme no matter how limited it may be. Thus the generalist chooses a Theme Spell List. Keep in mind the ones listed (Antimagic, Battle, etc.) are only Examples. You could technically still choose “any spell you want” at each spell level and call it Bob’s Theme if you really wanted to and the DM let you. BUT they have to be chosen at creation and dont change.
This also holds true for the other lineages, but with some logic thrown in. If you are of a Fireborn lineage, it makes no logical nor flavor sense for you to manifest cold/water spells. Does that make them a specialist? Hell No! They may get their lineage fire spells, but guess what? Of the other 35+ spells they get to choose over their career… not a Single One of them needs to be a fire spell.

On another note, I disagree that Specialists are more powerful than Generalists. They are balanced. A generalist can do more than a specialist but the specialist does what little they do better but suffers lack of versatility and usually suffers a small weakness as well. It’s a trade-off of balance. Which is more powerful a 2nd level Rogue with say 4 skills at 4 ranks or one with 8 skills at 2 ranks? Is a fighter with a bunch of generic feats like Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack more powerful than say a Fighter specialized with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon focus? It depends on the situation. Same thing with a specialist (or in this case a Lineage Sorcerer) versus a generalist spellcaster.

Also keep in mind that the lineages are NOT specialists. Some do have an inability to use certain magic but that doesn’t make them a specialist, it adds flavor and logic, and they gain equal benefits for the cost.

This also brings up another idea, how about we don't just include abilities with the lineages, but at the same level, they gain a penalty that increase with time. For example, for the feyborn one, they gain the fey's weakness to cold iron, but since they don't have DR it reflects in a different way. Either they take extra damage from cold iron weapons, or their spells are weakened when they are near cold iron (think superman).
Now that's flavor!!! Void the feyborn, one of the strongest sorcs of his time, is confronted by an covered assailant. "I know your weakness now, you will pay for killing my master, you will die and he will rise again!!." - as he takes the cover off as cold iron shield that weakens Voids powers.

I don’t understand what you mean here. If I am reading this correctly it seems that you are saying don’t give a lineage any abilities, just penalties?? Why would anyone ever bother then? Why would I take a lineage that grants me no abilities but a few specific known spells that I may or may not like, but that gives me penalties that continue to grow in severity? I guess I need some clarification on this one??

BTW, why the reduction in skill points? I thought that was a generally accepted mechanic that everyone liked.

There were a few dissenting votes on it and the logic made some sense. The first and foremost is PHB balance. We can see a pattern of Ratio between Number of Class Skills and Skill Points.
Core Sorcerer = 6 skills (2 SP)
Fighter = 7 skills (2 SP)
Barbarian = 9 skills (4 SP)
Cleric = 10 skills (2 SP)
Paladin = 10 skills (2 SP)
Druid = 12 skills (4 SP)
Wizard = 15 skills (2 SP = Offset of INT Primary more like 4 SP)
Monk = 18 skills (4 SP)
Ranger = 19 skills (6 SP)
Rogue = 29 skills (8 SP)
Bard = 35 skills (6 SP)

The are a few exceptions that don’t fit the pattern:
* The Wizard, because it would break the balance due to INT already being its primary stat and thus automatically granting an additional minimum of Skill points that not other class has. Even assuming a starting Wizards with only a 14 INT, they by default gain 4 SP per level.
* Barbarians get higher points than the others in their class skill range, but ALL of the Nature folk get more.
* And of course Rogues because they are supposed to be a skill primary class.

So on the balance note the Alt.Sorcerer has 9 Class Skills (only 7 of which are “heavy utilization” as profession and craft or more for flavor than everyday use). All other classes (except Barbarian) that have 10 and under class skills, gain only 2+INT.

Now looking at it from a min/max balance there is also one other problem that Halma brought to light that I had missed before. With 4+INT even assuming a 10 INT Human, the sorcerer has 20 Skill Points at 1st level with witch they can max out 5 of the 7 of the core class skills. An INT of 12 maxes out a 6th skill and an INT 14 maxes out the 7th core skill. Now even with the INT 10 the human can Keep those 5 skills Maxed at all times as they gain 5 points per level. Same for the higher INT. At a 12 they can keep 6 maxed and at a 14 they keep 7 maxed. A 16+ INT? All gravy and basically worthless for anything more than RP value.

I don't think that’s well balanced. If there were more skills to make choices necessary, then yes I would say go with 4+INT. I am toying with Use Magic Device after following the other sorcerer threads that have popped up in abundance since we started this. I am also toying with a few others as the class is supposed to be self taught, but I want to keep the skill list clean and simple.

Now granted, Monte’s Sorcerer only had 9 skills as well (including Profession and Craft) with 4+INT, though that was 3.0. In 3.5 He would be reduced to 7 as alchemy was absorbed into craft and scry doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically, the decision is still out on this.

Thanks for the comments and the ideas. Its got my mind thinking on a few things.

 

[Stalker0]

What I meant about the penalities, is that at the same level they gain their lineage abilities, they also gain some kind of lineage weakness. This helps with balance and helps add falvor to the class.

Why does the generalist have to have a specific theme? Why can't he just be a generalist? While I agree they should still get abilities, I think teh metamagic ones are general enough and still have enough bang for the buck. I still say we just let them pick any spell instead of having to pick from a lineage spell list.

 

[Khaalis]

What I meant about the penalities, is that at the same level they gain their lineage abilities, they also gain some kind of lineage weakness. This helps with balance and helps add falvor to the class.

AH! Ok. Now I got ya. Sorry about that. It just wasnt sinking in.
As for this idea, we may go that route in the end, but once you see the "Special Limitations" for each we may decide not to bother with yet more work. Most of the lineages are pretty laden with restrictions that match others from the PHB already. Not sure we need to add yet more without unbalancing the lineages to the too-weak side.

Why does the generalist have to have a specific theme? Why can't he just be a generalist? While I agree they should still get abilities, I think teh metamagic ones are general enough and still have enough bang for the buck. I still say we just let them pick any spell instead of having to pick from a lineage spell list.

This was one of the things that was agreed upon very early on. 90% of the people polled wanted to see a restriction placed on the core sorcerer toward spell lists. The most wanted option was a more restrictive spell list than the Wizard spell list. The only problem with that is that it is almost impossible to truly pear down the spell list in a fair and consistent manner. A battle sorcerer may find Secret Chest a worthless sorcerer spelll and want it removed from the list but a stealthy Rogue/Sorcerer would have plenty of uses for it. This is why I didnt like Monte's list. I felt the spell removals were arbitrary and in many occasions made no sense. Thus this leads to the idea of a theme. Most of the people agreed that a Sorcerer should have at the very least a very limited theme to their spells that reflects the kind of person they are, there goals, their motivations, their upbringing etc. Sorcerer spells are supposed to be born of the sorcerer, not something they sit down one day and say, "You know... I think it'd be really cool to be invisible." Thus the Themed spell list. Again keep in mind, the sorcerer player can sit down and deveise any theme they want. Were you raised by wolves and want to play Tarzan Sorerer but still want to be a generalist? Go for it. But the spells you choose for your lineage list should reflect this and be ferral and survivalist in nature, not city based social spells or spells of mass destruction. It also reflects true human nature (or humanoid to be fantasy politically correct). Every person has certain knacks, certain things they do well at versus things they dont do so hot at. Some people are great with math, others cant count bus change. Some people have a gift with mechanics while others wouldnt know the business end of a screwdriver if it bit them. This is reflected for a sorcerer in their lineage spell lists as well. Their theme is a reflection of what they have a knack for. The theme list is basically all about being a reflection of the sorcerer's archetype and the type of person they and their background.

Does that make sense?