Take this is commentary. I am not flaming – just explaining. A lot of this has already been covered so forgive me if the answers seem a bit abrupt, as I am just reiterating a summary of long discussions on the topics. I thank you for the ideas and opinions. As with all of us - Some good ones, some not so good ones. 
Look at it this way if no other way…
A human wizard spends from like age 10 to15 plus another 2d6 years in training for their class, 90% of which is huddled up somewhere reading books and tomes. Sorcerers on the other hand are grouped with Barbarians and Rogues for “training time”, coming into their powers within a 1d4 year period of when they begin to show themselves. In the class description they are listed as a self-taught class with no formal training which means they basically go on about their lives as normal (like a Barbarian and some Rogues) and try to grasp control of their powers while doing so. Now look at the NPC classes (a.k.a. The Normal, or Non-Adventuring folk in the world). The sorcerer is closest in nature to the Adept which is a d6. Only the commoner receives a d4 and this is supposed to reflect (due to its description) the average European pre-Renaissance “serf-like” poverty stricken commoner, thus basically the “classical” starving and sickly peasant. Even the aristocrat (the fop) gains a d8.
“Since Sorcerers often have a powerful presence that gives them a way with people, they frequently serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The Sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.”
* Bluff is currently a core skill and I feel it fits the sorcerer well as it is a common skill when you have a “way with people” and to “sway others”.
* Diplomacy covers the ability to ”serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others”
* Gather Information is specifically mentioned as something the sorcerer does but it is unfair to say the only way they can do it is through spells. Anyone that is supposed to be this charismatic and a force of personality would know how to pick up information from a social engagement.
* Intimidate is a function of the sheer force of the sorcerer’s personality. Whether it be from knowing what to say to intimidate or from some more metaphysical “evil-eye” syndrome.
* Spellcraft has been argued to be fitting of the sorcerer in many previous posts and explains the sorcerer’s interest and wish to know about their own abilities.
* Concentration is necessary for any combat oriented caster.
* Craft & Profession should be in any class for RP reasons.
The only one on the list that I can argue against really is Sense Motive. However, it places an emphasis on a skill other than their Charisma and it really is a necessary skill when dealing with others. A true negotiator, or someone who can sway others would not be able to function worth a bean without it.
And how does it tread on the Paladin? The Paladin gains a bonus to ALL saves regardless of source. Much more potent ability, though on average Paladins will have a slightly lower Charisma (average 16).
Personally I am still iffy on this ability myself but I haven’t heard any decent replacement suggestions yet.
Personally I have thought about the Intelligence bonus to Spells Known in the past as it makes sense under the “Spells Known” guise. However, this has been argued ad nauseum. A sorcerers spells are not “learned”... they develop. They are supposed to be more akin to spell-like abilities or even “super powers” than “spells”. Since they do not study magic nor receive formal training in magic and thus Intelligence should hold no sway on the spell ability of the sorcerer.
If you wish a sorcerer with the same level spell access as Wizards, Clerics etc. Check out Sonofapreacherman’s sorcerer at http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_classes_page.htm.
Example 1: Bull’s Strength - Bull’s Strength, Mass
Example 2: Teleport – Teleport, Greater
Example 3: Levitate – Fly – Overland Flight
Example 4: Summon Monster 1-9
Why should a sorcerer’s abilities not be able to evolve when the spells build on themselves? This allows for a slight bit more flexibility than standard spell swapping as it expands on spell swapping. However instead of letting you swp any spell for any spell, it merely allows you to swap related spells.
We have argued this topic as well. It not only requires a metaphysical leap that a sorcerer has no potential to learn a spell. A Sorcerer until they can no longer ever learn a new spell, still posseses the “Potential” to learn any available spell, just as do Wizards and Bards. Even though a Wizard doesnt know aa spell they are still allowed to use items they have never seen the spell for - so why cant a sorcerer? This is singling out the Sorcerer for restrictions that could and Should be targeted to ALL classes if used.
Aside from those points, it would require not only re-writing the sorcerer mechanic but would also require re-writing the magic item use mechanics in the DMG, which I am unwilling to do. Not as part of a core class design. The class design should be using as many existing core rules systems as possible rather than making new ones. Even Spell Evolution isn’t new. Its an expansion of the Spell Swapping.
Also keep in mind, and this is not meant to offend, but this class build is not meant to take into account 3rd party and expansion material. The Core Class build (our starting point) is meant to fit in the core book. Once the core class is hammered out – Then we will look into expansion material such as spell points, alternate spell lists, spell templates, item familiars, etc. etc.
As for charisma granting bonus Cantrips that is again a house-rule kind of scenario (one I personally use) but doesn’t fit into the core mechanic as it would require a re-write of the spells per day table which I really don’t want to touch as it is the foundation stone of the class.
The d6 HD is due to being a more combat trained and self-reliant class. The reason Wizards have a d4 is specifically because they spend their entire apprenticeship locked away studying books and scrolls. They are the classic bookworm geeks of the D&D world.Jens said:
Look at it this way if no other way…
A human wizard spends from like age 10 to15 plus another 2d6 years in training for their class, 90% of which is huddled up somewhere reading books and tomes. Sorcerers on the other hand are grouped with Barbarians and Rogues for “training time”, coming into their powers within a 1d4 year period of when they begin to show themselves. In the class description they are listed as a self-taught class with no formal training which means they basically go on about their lives as normal (like a Barbarian and some Rogues) and try to grasp control of their powers while doing so. Now look at the NPC classes (a.k.a. The Normal, or Non-Adventuring folk in the world). The sorcerer is closest in nature to the Adept which is a d6. Only the commoner receives a d4 and this is supposed to reflect (due to its description) the average European pre-Renaissance “serf-like” poverty stricken commoner, thus basically the “classical” starving and sickly peasant. Even the aristocrat (the fop) gains a d8.
I agree that they should remain relatively simple. The levels will work themselves out more when the abilities settle more.
First, this would be unfair to the generalist who has no lineage related skill to draw upon. Secondly it makes the class far too mutable and “clunky”.
“Since Sorcerers often have a powerful presence that gives them a way with people, they frequently serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The Sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.”
* Bluff is currently a core skill and I feel it fits the sorcerer well as it is a common skill when you have a “way with people” and to “sway others”.
* Diplomacy covers the ability to ”serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others”
* Gather Information is specifically mentioned as something the sorcerer does but it is unfair to say the only way they can do it is through spells. Anyone that is supposed to be this charismatic and a force of personality would know how to pick up information from a social engagement.
* Intimidate is a function of the sheer force of the sorcerer’s personality. Whether it be from knowing what to say to intimidate or from some more metaphysical “evil-eye” syndrome.
* Spellcraft has been argued to be fitting of the sorcerer in many previous posts and explains the sorcerer’s interest and wish to know about their own abilities.
* Concentration is necessary for any combat oriented caster.
* Craft & Profession should be in any class for RP reasons.
The only one on the list that I can argue against really is Sense Motive. However, it places an emphasis on a skill other than their Charisma and it really is a necessary skill when dealing with others. A true negotiator, or someone who can sway others would not be able to function worth a bean without it.
Now see, most everyone else thought they were quite powerful. And wanted to trim them. People are still arguing that Arcane Sense is too powerful even though it’s a mere cantrip. I am curious how you see it as adding a whole new set of rules? Only in that it is evolving from the spells? Or spell-like abilities to begin with? Quite a few classes gain spell-like abilities.
Curious – how is a bonus to saves vs. Spells/Spell-likes equal to Charisma mod. better than a Fixed bonus versus magic ranging from +4 (at every 5 levels) to +6 (at every 3 levels)? Its the same bonus but places the emphasis more on the primary stat (something really needed for Charisma).
And how does it tread on the Paladin? The Paladin gains a bonus to ALL saves regardless of source. Much more potent ability, though on average Paladins will have a slightly lower Charisma (average 16).
Personally I am still iffy on this ability myself but I haven’t heard any decent replacement suggestions yet.
The reason we steered more away from MAD is because every other class NEEDS MAD to help offset the fact that their primary stat grants benefits in-and-of-itself. Charisma has little to no benefit other than to determine spellcasting. So it had to be created. Also as the sorcerer is described, there are no other stats of import to them other than for the core abilities the stats grant. Sorcerers are not exceptionally athletic, nor are they exceptionally wise, nor do they have a penchant for study.
Personally I have thought about the Intelligence bonus to Spells Known in the past as it makes sense under the “Spells Known” guise. However, this has been argued ad nauseum. A sorcerers spells are not “learned”... they develop. They are supposed to be more akin to spell-like abilities or even “super powers” than “spells”. Since they do not study magic nor receive formal training in magic and thus Intelligence should hold no sway on the spell ability of the sorcerer.
This has also been argued ad nauseum and was met with a pretty resounding No. The balance factor in gaining higher level spells at the levels they are acquired is necessary to keep. This would also make a clumsy mechanic. I have tried to simplify acquisition of spells known. To go back to a “table” of spells known, and one that isn’t even the sorcerer table is (IMHO) a bad thing. Worse would be then to muddle the mechanic by making a new chart for spells known that has a * in the 2nd level spell slot at 3rd level and in the 3rd level spell slot at 5th level etc and so forth, and then having to explain that the * means that at that level the sorcerer only gains their lineage spell as a spell known. Then comes the trouble of re-writing the spells per day table to make an allowance for spells gained at a level early which goes back to the balance issue.
If you wish a sorcerer with the same level spell access as Wizards, Clerics etc. Check out Sonofapreacherman’s sorcerer at http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_classes_page.htm.
How is spell evolution an ugly mechanic. I don’t understand this comment. It is no more complex than spell swapping. It is not something that is necessary to use, it is an option. A spell path does not need to go from 1-9. A Spell Path can be as simple as 2 Spells or as complex as 9.
Example 1: Bull’s Strength - Bull’s Strength, Mass
Example 2: Teleport – Teleport, Greater
Example 3: Levitate – Fly – Overland Flight
Example 4: Summon Monster 1-9
Why should a sorcerer’s abilities not be able to evolve when the spells build on themselves? This allows for a slight bit more flexibility than standard spell swapping as it expands on spell swapping. However instead of letting you swp any spell for any spell, it merely allows you to swap related spells.
Again, if you want this mechanic, check out Sonofapreacherman’s sorcerer at http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_classes_page.htm.
We have argued this topic as well. It not only requires a metaphysical leap that a sorcerer has no potential to learn a spell. A Sorcerer until they can no longer ever learn a new spell, still posseses the “Potential” to learn any available spell, just as do Wizards and Bards. Even though a Wizard doesnt know aa spell they are still allowed to use items they have never seen the spell for - so why cant a sorcerer? This is singling out the Sorcerer for restrictions that could and Should be targeted to ALL classes if used.
Aside from those points, it would require not only re-writing the sorcerer mechanic but would also require re-writing the magic item use mechanics in the DMG, which I am unwilling to do. Not as part of a core class design. The class design should be using as many existing core rules systems as possible rather than making new ones. Even Spell Evolution isn’t new. Its an expansion of the Spell Swapping.
This would become a very ugly mechanic. It breaks the KISS test and it removes flexibility and choice. We do not want to remove a sorcerer’s flexibility in the choice of their spells to quite that specific a degree as it is hard enough to create a good spell selection that makes the sorcerer a viable class. The lineage spells add a small bit of flexibility in that it grants an added spell known, but it focuses the flavor of making it fit a specific theme, something that is rarely ever done with sorcerer spell selection due to a need to pick the most adaptive and broad reaching spells possible. The lineages also lend to a certain flavor allowing the sorcerer to learn spells outside the normal range of the Wizard list but at an equal cost.
Also keep in mind, and this is not meant to offend, but this class build is not meant to take into account 3rd party and expansion material. The Core Class build (our starting point) is meant to fit in the core book. Once the core class is hammered out – Then we will look into expansion material such as spell points, alternate spell lists, spell templates, item familiars, etc. etc.
This is basically the second option in Unearthed Arcana. It is not a “bonus” it is merely a different way of paying the cost of a Metamagic feat. What I wanted was a class ability, thus granting a virtual feat with free uses as a bonus. Anyone can choose to allow spellcasters an alternate way to pay for a metemagic use and it falls more to the realm of house rule than a class ability.
Because not all sorcerers should have to choose Detect Magic as a known spell. This goes back to the argument that for a Sorcerer to be “useful” they must choose these X spells (like Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Shadow Evocation, etc.). A sorcerer should not HAVE to pick certain spells to be useful. Many people like the Arcane Sense, the argument is whether “At Will” is too powerful. I was seeking a class ability that was a spell-like/supernatural ability that would be most fitting to all sorcerers. Similar to all bards getting fascinate and suggestion, or all druids getting wild shape and thousand faces or all paladins getting detect evil, special mount and remove disease.
As for charisma granting bonus Cantrips that is again a house-rule kind of scenario (one I personally use) but doesn’t fit into the core mechanic as it would require a re-write of the spells per day table which I really don’t want to touch as it is the foundation stone of the class.
All sorcerers gain eschew as a standard part of their spellcasting but still require those “special” components and foci. As for the XP for GP exchange – and this is personal – I personally don’t like it, but I will consider it based on feedback. XP is far more valuable than any GP value. XP is much harder to acquire than gold. Even IF I entertain this idea, I would use the existing mechanic from item creation. 1/25 of the GP in XP (minimum 1XP). Thus to ignore a 25gp focus would cost the Sorcerer 1XP. However, this adds up FAST, but might help give the sorcerer a small XP sink similar to a Wizard’s Scribe Scroll.
