Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[Grayhawk]

I like the Arcanist idea, but I assume that it would not allow application of Metamagic that the character didn't already know, correct? That means - as some have already mentioned - that a character would need to take metamagic feats in order to gain benefits... which amounts to limits, not options. It would be better - again, as already mentioned somewhere before - to perhaps dump one or two other perks, and automatically give sorcs metamagic feats to use with their abilities. That would also solve the "why not take a PrC?" delima, too.

The idea was for the Arcanist to be able to use all metamagic feats in the way I described it.

But, like I said, that may be too powerful and should maybe only apply to a couple of metamagic feats from the beginning.

My reasoning for letting those be Still and Silent is that the Sorcerer thus will be able to use his spells with less effort as his experience with them increases. (Remember that he can only apply both Still and Silent to spells of 2 levels lower than the highest spells he can cast.)

The question remains whether it would be too much to let him apply Quicken Spell (for instance) to his 0 level spells at 8th level, to his 1st level spells at 10th level, etc. without spending a feat on it.

 

[Stalker0]

Khaalis, I'm not saying give no class abilities, I'm just saying we can do all of the abilities within the lineage.

For instance, right now your giving sorcs arcane sense, strength of magic, and lineage abilities. I think the lineage abilities alone with the other minor changes to the sorc give him enough class abiliities.

Here are some examples:

Celestial
Restriction: The sorc must be of good alignment... insert clause about changing alignment.
Insert spell list: 0-9
1st level: Heredity: Gains knowledge [planes]... Aura [good]
3rd level: Spell Smiting: Evil Creatures suffer a -1 to saves and to SR against your spells.
? level: Grace: A number of times per day equal to your charisma mod, your spells will deal no damage to creatures of good alignment, including yourself.
? level: Radiance: Your body at will can glow as the daylight spell.
20th: ?

Now that's just an example, I wouldn't keep those abilties but that's kind of how I'm feeling the lineages.. they change the way the sorc can cast spells, they gain you some new things, and 1 more spell known per level. That plus the hd increase and the skills gained is all you need in my opinion.

 

[Stalker0]

Here's another example.

Antimagus
Restriction: Antimagi's affinity with antimagic has a negative impact on their spells. There spells suffer a -2 penalty to caster level for purposes of dispel checks.
1st Level: Void: A sorc's aura under the various detection spells shows up as an aura for a sorc 2 levels lower.
3rd: Resistance: An antimagi gains a +1 to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities.
6: Empowered Antimagic: This sorc gains a +2 bonus to all dispel checks.
13: Counteraction: A number of times per day equal to his cha mod, the sorc can use any spell of a higher level as the opponent's spell to counterspell it.
17: Cannabalize: A number of times per day equal to the cha mod, a sorc can dispel any spell he's cast automatically. He gains a spell slot back equal to 1/2 the spell level cannabalized.
20: ?

 

[Stalker0]

Here's another example.

Antimagus
Restriction: Antimagi's affinity with antimagic has a negative impact on their spells. There spells suffer a -2 penalty to caster level for purposes of dispel checks.
1st Level: Void: A sorc's aura under the various detection spells shows up as an aura for a sorc 2 levels lower.
3rd: Resistance: An antimagi gains a +1 to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities.
6: Empowered Antimagic: This sorc gains a +2 bonus to all dispel checks.
13: Counteraction: A number of times per day equal to his cha mod, the sorc can use any spell of a higher level as the opponent's spell to counterspell it.
17: Cannabalize: A number of times per day equal to the cha mod, a sorc can dispel any spell he's cast automatically. He gains a spell slot back equal to 1/2 the spell level cannabalized.
20: ?

 

[Khaalis]

Just a few quick comments that may not make much sense but I'll try. I'll reply more later (its the middle of the night for me but I cant sleep).

1) What happened to the Genericisism everyone seemed to want and push for? Rellying 100% on lineage removes that option and the core build concept of KISS and we are back to a TOO mutable and PrC oriented 20 level class. Lineage CAN be part of the core build using the argument of the flavor text, but it should not be mandatory - thus the "Generic" option. There still needs to be that generic option just as there is for the cleric.

2) Why 1,3,6,13,17,20? Thats level gaps of 2,3,7,4,3 - why such a vastly differing spread? Why the 7 level leap?

3) With the proposed Metamagic as the only class ability - I still dont see an incentive to stay a Sorcerer past the minimum level to get to a PrC (and Grayhawk you seem to be the first person I have ever see post that states that they DONT use PrCs), and we cant base a "core build" concept on ignoring the options open to players. As I have stated, the class should not be designed to allow easy access to PrC but it needs to be acknowledged that they exist and that people will take them. The point is to make the class balanced enough to disuade people from WANTING to PrC out ASAP because anything is better tha the core (as it is now).
Personally I wouldnt play the option listed with just Metamagic, though granted it does have an extra spell known per level. In fact I would rather revert to choosing Monte's Sorcerer over that build but again only until I could PrC or Multiclass out. Granted that just my opinion, but if I wanted to purely about metamagic - I'd be a wizard.

4) So far due to majority rule... BAB, Saves, Skills, HD, & Weapons/Armor are set as listed for this build. The primary discussion now is the class abilities.

5) I think I want to keep the spell-like "evolution" as an iterating ability, and work around that with other abilities. I disagree on familiars being approprate for Sorcerers, but that is my opinion, though I know many agree. I will be including them as part of a lineage (though they can always be attained by feat if someone so chooses).

6) Arcane Sense: Would this be "less Powerful" (which I dont see, it IS only a cantrip...) if it were a spell-like ability usable a number of times per day based on Charisma? What if it had a permanency cost such as permanently giving up 1 or 2 0-level castable spell per day?

7) As for all lineage abilities being matamagical in orientation: It cant happen unless they all start to look the same which is rather self-defeating. More often than not they will need to be spell-like or supernatural in nature to reflect the influence of the lineage. Otherwise why bother with various lineages if they all get say "Gain a +1 save to X type of spell" at 3rd and at say 6th "All spells of X type may be effected by Y effect, Z times per day".

8) Am I doing this in vein? I am seeing more people posting that disagree with the Core Analysis and Mission Statement forr this thread. If thats so - why bother re-writing it then? Or if you disagree with the mission of the thread why bother posting to disway those that do believe it needs re-written?
See http://www.enworld.org/forums/showt...28&goto=newpost instead.


Ok thats all my brain can handle for now - hope it makes some kind of sense. I'm back off to bed again and will reply more tonight.

 

[Stalker0]

Khaalis: The main reason that your suddenly seeing more ridicule is because as the class is developing its time to decide what stays and what goes. Its not just brainstorming anymore.

A lot of people were going with the lineage idea... it wasn't my favorite idea but since it seemed to be a fav one among so many people, I decided to work with it.

I thought the general sorc was going to be basically another type of lineage. Basically your not tied to any heritage, but you still gain some gernal abilities like the metamagic alteration. Now if your saying that everyone gets teh generalist's abilities and then get the lineages if they choose, we have to install much bigger consequences for the lineages to make them balanced with the generalist.

I picked those levels purely arbitrarily, just to throw some ideas out there. Personally, I don't think there has to be a set progression. Some lineages could get more things more often, others better abilities less often.

Here's my question, how many lineages are we going to have: 10? 20? Perhaps we should work on things one lineage at a time to get a progression we can all be happy with.

 

[Grayhawk]

As I know that my Arcanist class on the previous page is quite different from your build Khaalis, I've created a new thread for it for those that wish to comment on it, so that this thread may stay on topic.

For those of you that have any thoughts on it, please go here. (I even changed the hit die back to a d4!)

Khaalis, thanks for all the input your thread has supplied. I'll keep watching to see how it evolves.

 

[Zoatebix]

Asside from the listed DR benefits from Perfect Self, an Outsider gains he following (per the SRD).
Traits:
-Darkvision out to 60 feet.
-Proficient with all simple and martial weapons
-Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

I know the PHB doesn't make this explicit, but since the MM is the 'primary source' (a silly term from the 3.5 rules faq/errata) for types and subtypes...

Wouldn't perfect self make you an Outsider (Native, Augmented [whatever you were before])? I think 20th level monks still need to eat and sleep. It's weird that they'd get extra weapon proficiencies, too, but that's what the MM says.

Thanks for tackling this project! I'll be posting more constructive commentary next time, I swear!
-z

 

[Khaalis]

MASS REPLY

I know the PHB doesn't make this explicit, but since the MM is the 'primary source' (a silly term from the 3.5 rules faq/errata) for types and subtypes...
Wouldn't perfect self make you an Outsider (Native, Augmented [whatever you were before])? I think 20th level monks still need to eat and sleep. It's weird that they'd get extra weapon proficiencies, too, but that's what the MM says.

It is weird to gain the extra proficiencies. As for the Outsider (Native), I am not sure how this would work to be honest. I would have to lean toward sticking to the letter of the law per-say. Since there is a clause about native outsiders on both coming back from the dead AND on sleeping/eating, I would say that these are pretty particular instances. However, “Perfect Self” specifically states only 1 of those 2 clauses, which to me would indicate that the monk DOES gain the ability to no longer need sleep and food. Just my interpretation of it. I think the “loophole” is that while you become an Outsider – it doesn’t say an Outsider from where? You cant be an “Outsider” of the Material Plane. Think WotC might need to errata this.

Also, as I have said before, I don’t think Perfect Self is the best answer for a 20th level ability, but it is the closest core rule to fit the sorcerer. It does fit, I just personally care much for it and it would NOT be an incentive for me to reach 20 as a Sorcerer.

Khaalis: The main reason that your suddenly seeing more ridicule is because as the class is developing its time to decide what stays and what goes. Its not just brainstorming anymore.

Well I think ridicule is a bit harsh of a term…

A lot of people were going with the lineage idea... it wasn't my favorite idea but since it seemed to be a fav one among so many people, I decided to work with it.
I thought the general sorc was going to be basically another type of lineage. Basically your not tied to any heritage, but you still gain some gernal abilities like the metamagic alteration. Now if your saying that everyone gets teh generalist's abilities and then get the lineages if they choose, we have to install much bigger consequences for the lineages to make them balanced with the generalist.

What I am saying is that yes there is still a generalist that follows the same template as other lineages. I am also saying that there are certain abilities that are common to ALL sorcerers regardless of lineage.
Points in case: Clerics ALL gain Turn/Rebuke and Spontaneous Swapping, regardless of the domains they choose. Druids all gain Woodland Stride and Nature Sense regardless of what forms they choose to take as wild shape. All Rangers get Favored Enemy regardless of the combat path they choose to follow. All monks gain Slow Fall regardless of what style they learn. All Wizards learn to Scribe Scrolls regardless of what they choose to focus between item creation and metamagic.

Thus the sorcerer should have some abilities that are common to All sorcerers regardless of their “lineage”. If every lineage is completely unique from one another, then we have X number of base classes, not a core class with a path choice.

I picked those levels purely arbitrarily, just to throw some ideas out there. Personally, I don't think there has to be a set progression. Some lineages could get more things more often, others better abilities less often.

Ok. I was just curious on the levels. I didn’t know if it was arbitrary or “chosen for a reason”. As for a set progression, I disagree. As I said above and as many pointed out at the beginning of this thread and in the last thread, the lineages need to be a set Template otherwise you start getting into one lineage being better or worse than another. Lineage X shouldn’t have 3 levels of abilities and Lineage Y have 5. Also with templates, it leave it open to others to develop more. If there is no set template it makes it very hard to design new lineages as it is totally arbitrary.

Here's my question, how many lineages are we going to have: 10? 20? Perhaps we should work on things one lineage at a time to get a progression we can all be happy with.

The 14 examples to date are: General, Celestial, Child of Nature, Child of the Elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Divine Receptacle, Draconic, Fiendish, Gypsy Family, Shifter, Sorcerous Family, and Storm Giant.
(Others could be created such as a Mentalist, Force Weaver, Mechanist, etc.)

Also note that these are not detailed in the base Core Class description. They are an addendum just as Domains are to the cleric, or spells to the spellcasting classes.

 

[Jens]

I have enjoyed reading the thread but haven't replied before. Here's a mixed bag of comments and suggestions, all imo:

The basic changes seem a little too much. It's good that armor proficiency is gone but I'm not sure about the d6 for HPs. You say it's still less than clerics etc., but it is also as much as bards and rogues who are much more physical classes. I'd leave it at d4 and concentrate the benefits on spellcasting.

Lineages/affinities is a good idea. However, they should be kept really simple or the whole thing balloons out of proportion. I would give the special abilities at an even progression of levels such as 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

Even though I think the lineages should be simple, how about removing all class skills except the bare minimum (concentration, craft, spellcraft, profession) and instead let lineages give a couple of class skills?

The spell-like abilities have to go. It's too little to be really significant and adds a whole new set of rules.

I think the Strength of Magic ability should go as well, it's just too good and trespasses on paladin territory. I would actually prefer a fixed bonus to saves versus magic, maybe +1 per 3-5 levels.

How about introducing a little MAD? As it is, the sorcerer is really focused on only one stat with little meed for anything else. Specifically, how about giving bonus spells known for inherent intelligence? (I also think wizards should want wisdom and clerics should need charisma more, but that's not so relevant here.) I suppose this could be the standard rule for all cha-based (spontaneous) casters.

How about giving sorcerers access to their lineage spells a level earlier? Specifically, how about replacing the current progression for spells known with either the druid's or the wizard's progression for daily spells, requiring the first spell gained of each level to be the lineage spell. (The two progressions are almost identical, except the wizard's is capped at 4.) Using the wizard's progression would make a lot of sense if combined with giving bonus spells known.

Spell Evolution is an ugly mechanic. Only few spells belong to a path and few paths are complete (go all the way from level 0/1 to 9th). Until spells and chains are balanced, it's an ugly mechanic which requires another list and skews spell selection toward certain spells. For no real purpose when replacing spells is so much simpler.

If a nerf is needed (bonus spells known, even for intelligence, would be quite a treat), how about limiting the sorcerer's spell list to his spell known. This would bar him from using spell completion/trigger items with other spells, making scrolls and wands *much* less useful. Flavorwise, I think it would be a positive step to make sorecerers rely less on magic items manufactured by others. They could still use UMD, but it probably should not be a class skill.

Another possible nerf could be to a restriction on, say, the 4th spell known of each level, something like limiting it to spells 'similar' to the lineage spell. This would be simpler if the lineage spell was not one specific spell from a list but instead was chosen from a narrowly defined type of spell, such as 'fire based' or 'from the school of illusion'. It would take some care to define the groupings, but it would make sorcerers more diverse and make the class instantly compatible with spells from other sources than the PHB.

Can I propose a different mechanic for metamagic? How about allowing to cast a metamagiced spell without delay by sacrificing a spell slot of a level equal to the level adjustment? Of course he still needs to know the mm feat. This should probably just be an option available to all spontaneous casters, but sorcerers will benefit the most since they have many more spell slots than bards.

Instead of free detect magic, why not just increase the number of cantrips per day? Specifically, how about increasing the number of daily 0-level spells by the charisma bonus? This might be done for all casters or it could be a perk just for sorcerers.

Material components: Rather than granting Eschew Materials to some lineages, how about simply letting sorcerers replace inessential components with xp, say 1 xp for gp value, no minimum? It could be a basic trait of spontaneous casting or just for sorcererous spellcasting.

Phew! Have these things been discussed before? I haven't read any of the previous thread.