Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[Khaalis]

Getting spell school detection through detect magic is pretty easy in most campaigns. A lot of sorcs get spellcraft, and with the increase the skill points it would occur even more often. Also, the main difference between this and permancy is you get it a lot sooner, it has no cost, and permancy can be dispelled.

True though not all sorcerers will dump skill points into Spellcraft. It is not a fitting skill for a lot of sorcerer builds especially now that they have useful skills to spend points on. In the past they spent all their points on Spellcraft because they really didn’t have much choice.

However, though Detect Magic is useful, it is not a game breaker. It IS a 0-level spell first of all, and in most games it doesn’t serve too many purposes other than looking for magic items or magical traps. Even then its not unbalanced. Seeing the trap doesn’t help the rogue disarm it if they cant see it themselves. Detect magic doesn’t tell the sorcerer what the spell in place is just its school and strength. I don’t see it as an unbalanced ability especially when comparing it to per say Detect Evil which is given as an at-will ability and is a 1st-level spell.

Why does it need to be 10 class abilities? From my count clerics only get turning, spontaneous heal, and two domains, no where near 10. Wizards get 5 bonus feats and a familiar, but again no where near ten. Sorcs right now get eschew materials, spontaneous magic, a couple of lineage abilities, SLA's, and perfect self. Why go for any more?

Ok, I will post this once again…
The sorcerer class is NOT balanced in its abilities against the rest of the core classes. 10 Abilities brings it within a fair balance of the rest of the classes. I notice you chose to skip mentioning the other Pure caster – the druid. That by definition is swaying the balance. If you are going to compare class balance, you must compare the balance against all classes. Everyone screams “but the sorcerer can cast more spells” to which I say… “and…?” Statistically, the sorcerer doesn’t cast that many more spells actually, especially taking into account their incredibly limited spell selection. The party member’s contribution to a party is not primarily weighed by what they can do in one specific situation (which is the situation with a sorcerer’s spells as they are basically a one or two trick pony), it is based on what they can do in the long haul. Also - Clerics have a variety of small abilities you missed (see below) and Wizards also have Sscribe Scroll as well.

We are also not granting game breaking abilities. We are trying to add useful but flavorful abilities that make the sorcerer a “unique” class with a true feel of its own – like Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Druids, Barbarians, etc. Right now the sorcerer is nothing more than a limited use Wizard with limited but innate Spell Mastery.

SPELLS
Class………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…Preparation
Cleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Druid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Core Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / Fail
Wizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / Fail
Specialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail
*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.

Overall, I think the Sorcerer is balanced with the other pure casters gaining a SMALL advantage in spell casting over the others but at the high cost of very few spells they know. Add to this the MASS imbalance with the other core class mechanic structures such as skills, skill points, HD, combat, etc. The sorcerer is on the low end of everything else.

CLASS ABILITIES
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)
Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)
Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)
Fighter = 11 abilities
Monk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)
Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)
Ranger = 18 abilities
Rogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)
Cleric = 5 abilities (including: turn/rebuke, spontaneous, 2 domains, Specials (counted as only 1 ability): bonus languages, domain skill selections, divine unlimited arcana, favored weapon)
Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous; 17 without iterations)
Core Sorcerer = 2 abilities
Wizard = 7 abilities

The averagenumber of class abilities (not counting the core Sorcerer which is the weakest in class abilities of ALL classes):
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).

Now if you REALLY want to get picky about this to weigh the Alt.Sorcerer in the same manner, the they have:
Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilities (7 w/o iterations)
Even if you count spellcasting as 3 abilities (spells, spontaneous, high # cast per day) it STILL Only brings it to 12 abilities (9 w/o iterations).

The Alt.Sorcerer bringing total abilities up to 10 brings them closer to the average number of abilities of casters and the other classes in the game. And this doesn’t even count throwing in the imbalance of Armor and Weapon feats, HD, Skills etc. that the other classes get.

Your not backpedaling by not swapping out the lineage spell when it becomes a SLA. You gave the sorc that spell to enhance flexibilty, and now he can even use it as SLA on occasion. That's flexible already. Switching it out for another spell is even more flexible granted, but I believe it may be unneccesary.

Why unnecessary? It follows the same logic as spell swapping. The spell-like ability is an evolution. It has evolved form being a spell to a spell-like ability. To retain some balance and some logic, it can no longer also be a spell known. It has evolved into something different, something better. However, how is it not backpedaling?

This gets into a few metaphysics discussion questions. When you “forget” something, can you learn something new? Why can a sorcerer forget any other spell and replace it, but not this one? When a sorcerer’s spell evolves into a natural spell-like ability that no longer needs to be cast, does that mean their Intelligence or their IQ (their ability to Know X # of spells) drops because they lose the knowledge of how to cast a spell? This is an inherent problem with placing a finite quotient on what a sorcerer’s brain can “contain”. If you say that at X level of experience you can know how to cast 4 spells, but one of those spells is going to become a part of you and cease to be a spell you know how to cast, instead becoming something you can do with but a pure thought, but in so doing you are going to become more stupid and only know how to cast 3 spells. ??

This is supposed to reflect their mastery of magic, not a backslide in ability.

As for the perfect self, why make him an outsider? He doesn't have to change type necesarily, he just gets some kind of change for being that imbued with magic.

Such as? Examples?

This MUST be a power worth staying in the class to 20th level to attain, rather than Multiclassing out to ANY PrC with a “+1 level of existing spellcaster class” because they get all the nifty cool powers and the sorcerer gets squat. This is a HUGE failing in the core classes. There is NO incentive to stay in most of the core classes to 20th level. ANY PrC with “+1 level of existing spellcaster class” and a class ability no matter how lame – is still better than the core class.

So far the suggestions have indicated a form of metamorphosis, though I don’t want some physical metamorphosis like growing wings, etc. The only such core ability to date is Perfect Self from the Monk, and I am not too keen on creating a house version. Granted I personally don’t feel Perfect Self is alone worth sticking with the class to 20th level for when there are so many “Power Options” I can get for so much cheaper (such as Templates, PrC’s, Standard Multiclassing, etc.). Also, there is no “Magic” type. The closest thing possible would be to turn the sorcerer into either an Aberration, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid – or a worse choice… make it specific to the individual lineage.

As far as the power balance goes... if I'm correct the project is designed to enhance the customability and flexibility or the sorc and make him fit the roles he was designed for... not necessarily to make him stronger. The lineages have already gone a long way to doing that... if we make a powerful class with flavor... we made a good class. If we can make one with a lot of flavor and about the same power as the original we made a great class.

May I once again point people to page one and the listed mission statement, especially point B.

Thread Mission Statement: To create a dynamic and appealing version of the sorcerer class that:
A) Makes a sorcerer class mechanic that Matches the Flavor Text as designated in the PHB.
B) Balances the class to All of the existing core classes of the PHB.
C) Make the sorcerer a unique class with its own class abilities that separate it from being a Wizard that prepares spells differently.
D) Could be used as a substitute for the core sorcerer of the PHB, thus following a similar design template such as fixed skill lists and class abilities.
E) Present further Optional information to advance and customize the sorcerer.

As I have discussed at numerous points (see above and various previous posts), I (and many others) feel that the Core Sorcerer is Vastly underpowered when compared to the other core classes. Being able to machine gun cast a small handful of spells does not make the sorcerer powerful nor balanced (nor unique) unless you place it in the small percentage of games that are nothing put pure combat. There should be more to class design than combat balance. If every sorcerer is meant to be nothing more than a combat spell battery, effectively the Fighter of spellcasters – then better to scrap the entire build design to date and go with the Battle Sorcerer Unearthed Arcana variant which is basically a cleric with arcane spells instead of divine.


Keep the comments, questions, etc. coming.


PS: I have completed the 1st Draft of the sample Lineages. Once we get the core a little more hammered out (or I get enough Post Requests) I will post the lineages.

 

[Halma]

PS: I have completed the 1st Draft of the sample Lineages. Once we get the core a little more hammered out (or I get enough Post Requests) I will post the lineages.

Please Post, so that I can see and give my criticism.


Perfect Self:
You don't like the idea of the Sorcerer to take on the aspects of their lineage at 20th lvl? I thought this could be a good Idea, instead of just becoming a magical outsider. You get a list of possibilities, equally weighted, for each lineage and allow the sorcerer to choose what aspect he/she would like to have. For example a Dragon lineage could get a colored hue to their skin and thus imparting Natural Armor class bonus of some level. Or the sorcerer could choose a breath weapon that he would be allowed to use like a dragon of equivalent HD or some such mechanic. Or further a Celestial Lineage sorcerer could have imparted to him Gossamer like wings, giving our Sorcerer fly 60' good......
At 20th level our Sorcerer would have plenty of access to magical items that would give these same bonuses but having the Sorcerer have some of these abilities could free up his/her slot (e.g. the natural Armor amulet). I am not sure if any of these are usable, but again like you mentioned why would a Core Sorcerer stay in his core instead of going for say a Prestige class, or another more flexible class. What real benefit do you see from becoming a Magical Outsider?


Thanks again for your work in this.


Halma

 

[Khaalis]

Please Post, so that I can see and give my criticism.

I will soon. I would like to hammer out the core a bit before we start mass "discussions" on the lineages - because I am SURE there are going to be MANY "discussions".

Perfect Self:
You don't like the idea of the Sorcerer to take on the aspects of their lineage at 20th lvl? I thought this could be a good Idea, instead of just becoming a magical outsider. You get a list of possibilities, equally weighted, for each lineage and allow the sorcerer to choose what aspect he/she would like to have. For example a Dragon lineage could get a colored hue to their skin and thus imparting Natural Armor class bonus of some level. Or the sorcerer could choose a breath weapon that he would be allowed to use like a dragon of equivalent HD or some such mechanic. Or further a Celestial Lineage sorcerer could have imparted to him Gossamer like wings, giving our Sorcerer fly 60' good......

Personally, and I know this is my personal taste... I am not a huge fan of physical metamorphosis like wings, etc. Just doesnt make much sense. Its fine in its place I guess, and I personally think that should be left to the realm of the PrC. If we want to make a PrC that basically turns the Sorcerer into something at the end - that I could live with, but to make it a core ability is hard for me to swallow.

My personal taste asside this would make the lineage choices a bit more complex. However, it may be the right path, just not one I relish. I was hoping to keep the level 20 ability more "generic" and something that is already a core rule.

At 20th level our Sorcerer would have plenty of access to magical items that would give these same bonuses but having the Sorcerer have some of these abilities could free up his/her slot (e.g. the natural Armor amulet). I am not sure if any of these are usable, but again like you mentioned why would a Core Sorcerer stay in his core instead of going for say a Prestige class, or another more flexible class. What real benefit do you see from becoming a Magical Outsider?

Asside from the listed DR benefits from Perfect Self, an Outsider gains he following (per the SRD).
Traits:
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Proficient with all simple and martial weapons
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

If we try to create something more powerful than Perfect Self, we run the risk of too powerful an ability. To be perfectly honest, even with Perfect Self there is little in the way of an ability that can solely make someone stick to 20 levels in a class - not when the system at its core is so heavily geared to encourage multiclassing.

If you have specific ideas for an ability similar to perfect self go ahead and post it.

Thanks!

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

As far as the power balance goes... if I'm correct the project is designed to enhance the customability and flexibility or the sorc and make him fit the roles he was designed for... not necessarily to make him stronger. The lineages have already gone a long way to doing that... if we make a powerful class with flavor... we made a good class. If we can make one with a lot of flavor and about the same power as the original we made a great class.

As I have discussed at numerous points (see above and various previous posts), I (and many others) feel that the Core Sorcerer is Vastly underpowered when compared to the other core classes. Being able to machine gun cast a small handful of spells does not make the sorcerer powerful nor balanced (nor unique) unless you place it in the small percentage of games that are nothing put pure combat. There should be more to class design than combat balance. If every sorcerer is meant to be nothing more than a combat spell battery, effectively the Fighter of spellcasters – then better to scrap the entire build design to date and go with the Battle Sorcerer Unearthed Arcana variant which is basically a cleric with arcane spells instead of divine.

Perhaps I can do for Stalker0 what Knight_Errant did for me.

The issue Stalker0 is making here is not so black and white. It is not about making the sorcerer more powerful or not. It is not even about making the sorcerer more flexible or not. What Stalker0 seems to be saying (in my opinion) is that the sorcerer should be made "more flexible" without making the sorcerer "too powerful" (and definitely not more powerful than the other core character classes).

The one-trick pony effect of the sorcerer is removed by giving them more spells to choose from. They cease to be a machine gun of combat spells by giving them *any ability* that increases their spells known. Sorcerer flexibility is achieved by that alone. Beyond raising their HD, class skill choices, and skill points, adding anything more to the sorcerer borders on the *two* powerful side.

This statement is predicated on the belief that there are fundamental differences between arcane and divine spells.

Some of you feel that both are equally powered, while many are convinced (creators included) that arcane spells were deliberately designed to be significantly more powerful than divine spells (both as combat and utility spells). Comparing the two sets of spellcasting abilities equally (by simply counting abilities) ignores their fundamental differences. Because divine spells are less powerful than arcane spells, clerics and druids get a boost in other areas (domain abilities and wildshape for example).

Arcane spells *are* the abilities that sorcerers enjoy. Not magical saving throw bonuses. Not monk-like abilities. Sorcerers can replicate a host of wildly varied and unique abilities by (as boring as this may sound to some of you) casting their spells. Those spells are the central nervous system and beating heart of the sorcerer. Forgetting that, by adding additional special abilities to the sorcerer (not to be confused with adding abilities that augment their existing spells), is like forgetting what this innately magical character class is about, not to mention game balance.

 

[Stalker0]

I think sonofapreacherman put my argument in an elegant light.

For a spellcaster, every new spell they can cast is a new class ability if you will. So by increasing their spellcasting flexibility we are giving them a lot of new class abilities.

But Khaalis is also right in that we need to make the sorc have a progression that is worthwhile, instead of every tom dick and harry prc with a +1 spellcasting level stealing the sorc's thunder. I also agree that giving more options to the way sorcs can cast spells enhances their flavor.

I think the lineages do it all. They at the same time grant additional spells known, new abilities, and a progression. The key is to pick the right abilities. For instance, I like the general sorcs metamagic abilities. That's cool. I would like to see the other lineages have a similar effect on his spellcasting, for instance, allowing the celestial lineage to grant the sorcs spells a certain effect on evil creatures, or allow him to change his spells slightly with a good theme. That's flavor. Even the restrictions we can imply with each lineage can give the sorc flavor (what a character can do is just as defining as what he cannot do)

So if we can pick good abilties for the lineages and give it a decent progession we've solved the majority of problems others were mentioning about the sorc with one package!!

So to sum up, here is my suggestion for this sorc: Focus on the lineages to give what we need based on Khaalis' mission statement:

A) Makes the sorc more like the flavor text in the phb: I think we've already covered this with a few more skills, and hd. Lineages can cover the rest.
B) Balance the class to all other existing classes: Lineages add more spells known... that's a lot right there. They also give new abilities which can be made flavorful and as powerful as we need it. Combine that with the higher hd and more skills and I believe the job is done right there.
C) Make the sorc class unique to other classes, esp the wizard: With lineages, we are definately making the sorc unique. We are giving him new flavor in his spells, and his spellcasting, even his class skill list.
D) Create a substitute for the original sorc: We have modeled the lineage as domains enough to use current mechanics, but differentiated it enough to make it unique.
E) Allow a way for sorcs to advance and for customization later: We can always add new lineages, prestige lineages, more advanced progessions for lineages.


Okay, that's my statement about balance for now

As far as the detect magic at will argument, yes paladins get detect evil at will. But they also have a very strict code they must follow, nor are they getting a lot of new spells every level. And believe me from experience, players treat at will abilities at lot more freely than spells per day no matter how many times they could normally cast it. I've actually given detect magic at will for a limited time to a player, and the things they learn to do with it I feel perhaps this could be given to a particular sorc lineage, with some kind of other restriction.

I also agree we want a good level 20 ability to keep the package. I think we can work to make it as a final progression to a sorc's lineage... we will have to see how those work out.

So I really feel right now we should focus our efforts on the lineages, both the spells known and the abilities. Let's assume that is all the sorc is getting besides perhaps eschew materials. Let's work with those and see what we come up with. If the final package is lacking we can add other abilities. But in my mind its easier to have a good base and build up then to have to nit and pick and pull things down to balance it out.

 

[Stalker0]

Oh one other thing I notice was the mention of adding SR. No SR is ever nothing. Even if the spellcaster only needs to roll a 2 to bypass it, that's still something. When you factor in that a spellcaster needs to bypass SR AND beat a save... the effects are meaningful.

 

[Khaalis]

Then please provide examples and suggestions.

From everything argued so far it would appeart that some would prefer NO abilities to be granted. If I am reading correctly, certain posts indicate that the perfect alt.sorcerer consists of:

Hit Die change to: d6
Class skill list change to: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive.
Skill Points change to: (4+INT modifier) x4
Lineage: Add one spell per spell level to spells known based on the theme.

Done. Anything more would be overbalancing.

Personally I disagree more strongly than I can begin to say.

As I said, any PrC that grants ANY ability no matter how weak or how lame as long as it grants "+1 level of caster class" is better than the Sorcerer. There is no reason to stick with sorcerer beyond making the min requirement for said PrCs which can range from a typical 6th level to even as low as 1st level. I dont give a rats @$$ if the designers think the sorcerer is balanced because it gets arcane spells or not - its not well designed if there is no reason to stay in the class. The classes are supposed to be based on "hard choices" as per the designers. There is no choice needed for the sorcerer. ANYTHING you can multiclass into that also extends casting is better than the core class. Thats a HUGE flaw in the core design!

A good place to see such arguments is this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77628&goto=newpost

I feel the progression as it stands is a good one. It is merely a matter of adding abilities that match the lineages but that are worthwhile enough to make a sorcerer WANT to stay in the class long enough to get them. They should be faced with a hard choice NOT to want to stay in the class. The only way to do that is with class abilities.

I am seeking constructive examples and suggestions.

 

[evilbob]

I have to say that I agree with those who do not feel the sorc is underpowered. Bland, yes - but not underpowered. I think arguments involving total abilities per class are pointless; we all know the monk is NOT the strongest class, but they technically get the most abilities on a chart. Being able to cast arcane spells up to level 9 is probably the most powerful and weighty ability in the game, and being able to cast 6 of them is amazingly powerful - even if it the same one or two several times - and far exceeding other class's "level 20" abilities. I also think that people are not accurately taking into account the true flexability of the sorc - wizards can prepare for a wide range of specific situations, but they MUST prepare their spells; sorcs cast spontaniously. When measuring a class's effectiveness in "the long haul," being able to react and adjust to any situation is a massive boon to this class. All in all, I consider a wizard to be the most powerful long-term class in the game, and I see a sorc as close to a wizard in power. It maybe isn't quite as powerful, but certainly not so underpowered as to require all of these additional bonuses. In that respect, I disagree with bonuses to hit die and armor proficiencies, despite any descriptive text (which honestly, I see as merely justification for simple weapon prof), and I strongly disagree with adding more spells per day, innate abilities, spell-like abilities, or giving them spells earlier in their progression.

That being said: I love the Ecshew Materials idea, and think it is a definite keeper. But I think if you are going to give it to sorcs, you should allow bards to have it for free as well - basically following the idea that all Cha-based spellcasters would have this feat.

I also like the Lineage/Ancestry/etc. ideas that were discussed earlier that involve taking a penalty in order to get a bonus - similar to the specialization of schools that sorcs and wizards can already do. (Like the "Dragon Lineage" that allowed a bonus to certain types of energy attacks and a penalty to opposite types.) I think that helps add a lot of flavor and "mix up" the variety of sorcs, without making them overpowered - which solves the main problems of being too bland, and helps to create more unique types of sorcs. In my opinion, if you really want to "redesign" sorcs, I'd say focusing in on this aspect is the best way to go about it, and to ignore all other unwarrented bonuses.

EDIT: Taking into account that last post, it would be easy enough to maintain that sorcs who multiclass out or gain PrCs do not continue to gain the benefit of their lineage - thus giving them a reason to stay sorcs, and still not overpowering them. (I.e. spells learned when in a PrC do not gain the benefit/penalty associated with lineage, since the sorc is overcoming their background to develop as another class.) Also, your argument that sorcs have no reason to stay sorcs would imply that a cleric PrC would make the cleric class worthless as well, since they receive no other "abilities" after the first level unrelated to their caster level. Wizards, too, would have no reason to stay wizards, as long as their PrC provided some sort of ability that was as good as a feat.

 

[Grayhawk]

I've been following this from it's inception, mostly mining it for ideas for my own Sorcerer fix, but in an attempt 'to give something back' I'll comment on some of the issues brought up, as well as presenting my own Sorcerer.

Keep in mind that the following is merely my own opinion.

First, I don't agree that the Sorcerer is vastly underpowered, and as such I think that any weakness quickly can be overcompensated for.

I don't think the Sorcerer should get any armor proficiencies.

(As I understand it, Khaalis doesn't want to remove the ASF while in Light armors - nor should he - so I don't see any reason for the Sorcerer to get Light armors. The fact that anybody can use Padded and Leather without any drawbacks besides ASF doesn't suggest to me that you might as well be trained in all Light armors. I just see it as an option for a Sorcerer to put on a Light armor, if he can life with the ASF.)

Regarding Class Skills, the only thing I would do is replace Bluff and Knowledge Arcana with Intimidate and Diplomacy.

(I don't believe it's necesarry to pile up on the Cha skills for the Sorcerer to get something out of his Cha score, and I believe that doing so will lessen the Bards appeal as 'Face' and information gatherer. I think the addition of Intimidate and Diplomacy is enough, and that it can represent how different Sorcerers choose to influence their surroundings through their high charisma.)

As for skill points, I feel that 2 may just be enough.

(Especially for my own game, where I have 'opened up' the availability of skills by letting cross class skills have the same cost as class skills (but keeping Max ranks the same), as well as giving 1 free skill point per level to be used with a Knowledge, Profession or Craft skill. Also, doubling the Sorcerer's skill points lessens the appeal of the Human's skill benefit and the need for allocating stat points to Int. Also, even though the Sorcerer may be self taught, I can easily see the argument that someone who manifests magic powers will be lacking in the skills department.)

I feel that it's ok to improve the Sorcere's HD to a d6, as this will help differentiate him from the Wizard and since it fits the image of him not gaining his spells from being locked away in a library.

I agree that the Sorcerer should get all Simple Weapons.

I think that Sorcerers should be able to change spells by 'evolving' them instead of the core mechanic that lets them swap unrelated spells.

I actually believe that Familiars fit Sorcerers better than Wizards, and as such would rather remove the Familiar from the Wizard's list of class abilities and place it on their bonus feat list instead. But since this thread is about changing the Sorcerer, I can live with removing it from the Sorcerer instead.

I think that Sorcerers should definitely get Eschew Materials for free.

(Especially if used in conjunction with describing the Sorcerer's spells as being cast differently than the Wizard's, like I mentioned earlier: 'A channeling of innate power, often requiring a powerful gesture - like pointing at the target of a spell - as well as a word of power.')

I'm not much for all the heredity, lineage, bloodline, etc stuff that many people seem to want to be part of the Sorcerer. I think that the class shall be kept simple and clean, leaving the 'advanced' options for PrC's (which I don't use at all.)

Also, I don't agree that the sorcerer needs a lot of class abilities, as I see his spells as being his class abilities.

Letting a Sorcerer Detect Magic at will is too powerful, IMO.

I do however agree with letting the Sorcerer improve his numbers of spell known by alowing him to choose a Domain from UA. These spells should be cast at their original level, and shouldn't be subject to 'evolving'.

Giving the Sorcerer a Metamagic ability that is governed by the Cha stat and which can make his casting different from the Wizard should (among the changes mentioned above) be enough for the Sorcerer.

Here follows my attempt at creating an alternate Sorcerer to replace the one from PH. For ease of reference I've named this class the Arcanist.



The Arcanist

d6 HP
Good Will
Poor BAB
Simple Weapons
No Armors
2 Skill Points/lvl
Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Profession, Spellcraft

Spells per day as Sorcerer
Spells Known as Sorcerer + 1 Domain from UA

No Familiar, but can obtain one at the cost of a feat

Eschew Materials a 1st level, but cannot learn spells with a material component costing more than 1 GP

Spontaneous Metamagic:

An Arcanist gets 3+Cha bonus slots per day to improve his spells with Metamagic feats. Metamagic feats can only be applied to spells the Arcanist could have affected using the core rules. Thus a 4th level Arcanist can apply MM feats with a level adjustment of +1 to either his 0 or 1st level spells, MM feats with a +2 adjustment to his 0 level spells only, and cannot affect his 2nd level spells (yet). Upon reaching 8th level he can apply the Quicken Spell feat to his 0 level spells, etc.

The cost is one 'slot' per increased level adjustment. Thus a 4th level Arcanist with a Cha of 16 has 6 slots to freely improve his spells by each day. These 6 slots can for example be used in the following way: Silent 2 1st level spells and both Silent and Still 2 0 level spells, or any other combination that adds up to 6 levels worth of adjustments.

Spells thus adjustet don't increase in casting time and don't require higher level spell slots.



That's it. I feel that my special metamagic ability is enough of a benefit that no higher class abilities are needed, as it continues to improve as the Arcanist can apply it to higher level spells. Only thing I'm afraid of is whether it's too powerful. Maybe it should only apply to Silent and Still, making stuff like Empower and Quicken available through normal feat cost?

I'm aware that not all of the things presented in this post may be of use to the Sorcerer being developed here, but i hope that at least some of it may be.

Good luck!

 

[evilbob]

I like the Arcanist idea, but I assume that it would not allow application of Metamagic that the character didn't already know, correct? That means - as some have already mentioned - that a character would need to take metamagic feats in order to gain benefits... which amounts to limits, not options. It would be better - again, as already mentioned somewhere before - to perhaps dump one or two other perks, and automatically give sorcs metamagic feats to use with their abilities. That would also solve the "why not take a PrC?" delima, too.