Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

[Stalker0]

This will be my last post for the week as I'm heading to spring break.

Okay how about this ability:

Essence of the Angels: A number of times equal to his cha mod, the sorceror may infuse a spell with extra energy from his angelic ancestors. The spell is treated with a +1 caster level.

And this is not really a new mechanic, as the cleric good domain grants a +1 to caster level to all good spells... so players already know how to handle +1 caster levels, we are just changing when they can use and what spells they can use it on.

About the added spell repetior. Khaalis, didn't you say that most people wanted us to limit the sorc's list? And yet, we are allowing them to access any good spell? But also, why are we really including a lineage spell list, if we are just giving them all this customability?

We have to remember conciseness again... I had worried early on that people would have to start flipping pages and pages to figure out to compare each lineage and it was going to get complicated. And now when a sorc picks this lineage, they have all these new spells to look at from both their own, and clerical lists. Its too much imo.

I think we need to cut this down, here are my suggestions:

1) Keep the customability (adding the good spells, etc), but drop the lineage spells. We can say the sorc has an extra spell known that can be picked from among this new spells.

Stalker's recommended: 2) Just drop the extra good spells, and stick to the lineage spell list. These are supposed to represent the sorc's ability to expand past his own innate list by including spells like planar ally, etc.

Here's are the problems with the first:
1) While I love customability, we are trying to be concise
2) Too much overlap with the divine spell list is bad in my opinion. We can have a divine like sorc lineage without being too divine.

You guys got me on board for the lineage spells, I've already described the reason I believe they both give the sorc more power and much more flavor. But I think that's far enough.

Well that's all I have for now, don't get TOO crazy with the lineages while I'm gone And feel free to post some new ones during the week, I wouldn't mind going for the element ones next.

 

[Gordo]

yeah, but... (my take)

hi folks. my 1st post here.

thanks for all your incredible work fixing one of the most awkward and ill-conceived aspects of WOTC’s game design. i like nearly everything you've done with the class, but i still have some conceptual issues trying to delineate the differences btw even this version of the sorceror & the by the book wizard. bear with me, this may run on a tad...

here's the root of the problem for me. this model doesn’t change how the sorceror uses magic. s/he still has spell slots limiting them to X number of 1st level spells, Y number of 2nd level spells and so on. (I think) this model still has them wagging their fingers around and chanting mumbo-jumbo to cast spells – and I think that all of this is still too close to wizards and how they do it. Kudos for easing the spell components restrictions, but to me, they should be gone completely.

here’s where I’m coming from. as i understand the flavor text, the sorceror is essentially a creature of magic. magic is innate, it flows through them, it is part of who they are. by virtue of this, they are different than other folks.

me, i can wiggle my ears independently of each other and touch my tongue to the tip of my nose. not everyone can do that. similarly, the sorceror lives, breathes, eats and drinks magic, mana or whatever you wanna call it. Their ability to twist it to their whim is as 2nd nature to them as wiggling my ears is to me.

they have only finite abilities to use it, however, just as any of our muscles will tire after excessive use. to do new things with magic takes practice, time and experience. moreoever, each sorceror will probably figure out new things, new tricks.

Wizards, by contrast, are like our scientists. They apply their intellect and will to a problem, logically and methodically probing the causal relationships btw natural forces. But the crucial difference for wizards is that they are outsiders to magic just looking in, just as a physicist is an outsider to the power of gravity. s/he can create experiments to manipulate and/or observe gravity, s/he can harness the power of it to solve problems, but gravity is in now way part of a scientist’s being. In this way, the regimented, proscribed way in which wizards practice their art is logical. Spells are like time honored experiments shown to prove repeatable results. They are engineered.

Given that this is my understanding of the two classes from the flavor text, I find it pretty silly that:

1. Both classes use spell slots. A sorceror’s ability to manipulate mana is a direct function of his/her special ability (in this case, CHA). Slots don’t make sense here, instead I advocate…power points. (oh, btw, just chuck the psion. It sux) I haven’t done the math on how to award them, or how many to give, but the bottom line for me is this. I know that my leg muscles and lung capacity will carry me approx 2 miles before I’m really winded and can’t run any further (sad but true). Magic should be the same way for sorcerors. s/he can use so much magic per day before tiring and being drained. Who cares if it’s 1 4th level spell, 3 2nd level spells and a 4 1st level spells? I have X capacity, measured by my charisma bonus(?) and my relative proficiency (level) and I know a few tricks (spells). I just keep doing what I do until I’m out of gas.
2. Both classes essentially use the same spells. Huh? How is that supposed to work? Wizards, cloistered in towers and academies, passing down quasi-scientific knowledge generation to generation about how to manipulate mysterious forces will have exactly the same spells and effects at their disposal as a whole class of people, more randomly distributed across the land/world/plane, who all are flexing this strange ‘muscle’ in different, random, individual and experimental ways? That just doesn’t make sense, and implies that there’s a very finite number of applications for magic, something I inherently reject. Sorcerors need a separate list of spells. Moreover, their spells need to be simpler, less ‘arcane’, and more about the direct application of force; less studious, more practically motivated, stuff you could discover on your own if you had the skillz.
3. Spell components, somatic components, etc. should be dropped because sorcerors ability to use magic comes naturally from the fiber of their being.They should face a heavy concentration requirement (heavier than for wizards), and have a distinguishable tell (ooh, neat idea, have a sort of magical residue be like a magical fingerprint; everyone’s got a different one. Think of a D&D CSI type thing here. Interesting…). Think about it, wizards, who are trying to manipulate the forces of magic as an outsider to the stuff, need these spell components and incantations because they bind them to the forces they’re trying to control because it doesn’t flow thru them naturally. Sorcerors don’t face that problem, and shouldn’t have to jump through the same hoops. For balance purposes, it should just require more of their strength/energy to cast bigger spells.

The observant among you may have noticed that my conception of sorcerors borders on the wotc definition of a psion. Guilty. But they failed so miserably defining the psion that the class is worthless. Think the 3E & 3.5E sorceror is weak? Play the psion. And the whole “psionics is different/no, it’s not” debate is tiresome and stupid.

Basically, to sum up, I’d like sorcerors to have no spell slots, use power points; have a diff list of spells w/an easier ability to make up individual one of their own; have no material or somatic components; but have a tough concentration requirement and a distinct tell.

Ok, folks, waddya think? Am I crazy?

 

[StAlda]

hi folks. my 1st post here.
[snip]
The observant among you may have noticed that my conception of sorcerors borders on the wotc definition of a psion. Guilty. But they failed so miserably defining the psion that the class is worthless. Think the 3E & 3.5E sorceror is weak? Play the psion. And the whole “psionics is different/no, it’s not” debate is tiresome and stupid.

Basically, to sum up, I’d like sorcerors to have no spell slots, use power points; have a diff list of spells w/an easier ability to make up individual one of their own; have no material or somatic components; but have a tough concentration requirement and a distinct tell.

Ok, folks, waddya think? Am I crazy?

Spells and Psionic Powers are written differently to allow Power Point manipulation. We would have to rewritten the spells available to the Sorcerer to accommodate a point system. I think that is a little ambitious for this project. Also, saying “chuck the psion” isn’t going to work either, especially with revised rules coming out in 2 months.

IMC, I already have a slimmed down Sorcerer spell list based on Monte Cooke’s Eldritch books. There is something to be said about a new magic mechanic for the Sorcerer. IMC, I have Bards based on the Eldritch books (using no Arcane spells), Dwarven Runecasters (using any combination of Divine or Arcane spell depending on the rune), Druids using Divine spells but a different mechanic for most aspects of casting those spells. I tried to make each class a unique magic system.

In the end though, unless we want to create a whole new set of spells, we have to use Arcane spells for the sorcerer - same as the wizard. And there are about a ba’zillion Alternate Sorcerers out there, I think this one is just trying to be only a little off center.

I hear what your saying, and I can feel your pain, but I (at least) am not traveling down the power point road.

 

[fuindordm]

Interesting points from Gordo. Long ago I used to be all for power points,
until I saw how WotC implemented them. I don't like them in the psionics book, and I don't like them in unearthed arcana either. The reasons aren't important, and I don't want to sidetrack the thread. I'll just offer up Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed and World of Time d20 as counterexamples of how the spell slot mechanic can offer a good balance between flexibility and power.

However, the point the the sorcerer still "feels like a wizard" mechanically is well taken. Let's take your points one by one (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting)

1) Sorcerers should have a more restricted spell list, with focus on manipulation of raw power/energy and fewer spells with 'academic' feel.

Personally, what I see in the sorcerer is the potential for nearly infinite variety! I'd be more inclined to open up their spell list to allow them to learn any existing spell, so that each sorcerer is fully customized to the player's conception of their background and bloodline. There are a couple of things (cure spells for example) that would need to be restricted or otherwise reined in, but not too many. Almost any spell can be justified with a bit of flavor text or a tweak to the campaign world, and there are a lot of 'academic' spells out there that are used as spell-like abilities by powerful monsters (Symbol, Gate, etc.). The upshot is that while there is many a flash-bang sorcerer out there, I like a world in which there are also shadow sorcerers, psion-sorcerers, "lucky" sorcerers, fey sorcerers, and many other player concepts.

2) Sorcerers still twiddle their fingers and mumble magic words.

This is a concession to simplicity and adding as few new rules as possible. Here, however, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To match the flavor text of self-taught magicians, we should expect to see sorcerers that dance, craft, concentrate, dream, drum, and sacrifice for their magic--not just verbal and somatic components.

Material components impose a cost to the PC and therefore a minor limit on their power--they should be replaced with an xp cost. Otherwise, I would suggest that sorcerers be made distinct by the choice of the player--let them pick one very limiting (e.g. a staff focus that can easily be disarmed, broken, etc. and is obviously a requirement for their magic) or two mildly limiting (e.g. a childhood toy that they must have on their person, and require a concentration skill check for all spells) spellcasting requirements that appy to all their spells. These replace the verbal, somatic, and inexpensive material requirements. (V,S,M can still be chosen by the sorcerer as one of their
two, of course).

3) Spell slots are two limiting

Solution: adopt the Arcana Unearthed rule for sorcerers:
I) 3 slots of level N can be traded up to one of level N+1
II) 1 slot of level N can be split into two slots of level N-1
IIa) Slots derived by splitting a higher-level spell can't be further split!

Cheers,
Ben

 

[Fieari]

3) Spell slots are two limiting

Solution: adopt the Arcana Unearthed rule for sorcerers:
I) 3 slots of level N can be traded up to one of level N+1
II) 1 slot of level N can be split into two slots of level N-1
IIa) Slots derived by splitting a higher-level spell can't be further split!

I like this solution so much, I was actually about to make it myself! It really gives a more spontaneous feel.

I personally feel uncomfortable with requiring ANY material components or focii for the sorceror... but then, IMC we've already houseruled that sorcerors automatically get eschew materials for free, applied to all spells.

On the other hand... having to make concentration checks or doing a little dance or whatever... that feels quite interesting, and right in with the feel for the sorceror.

Been following this thread for a while... definitely interested and will likely use the finished product in my own campaigns.

 

[StAlda]

I started a new thread on Sorcerer Spellcasting Mechanics. I don't want to see the focus of this thread changed.

See http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79555

 

[Khaalis]

Mass Reply

Essence of the Angels: A number of times equal to his cha mod, the sorceror may infuse a spell with extra energy from his angelic ancestors. The spell is treated with a +1 caster level.
And this is not really a new mechanic, as the cleric good domain grants a +1 to caster level to all good spells... so players already know how to handle +1 caster levels, we are just changing when they can use and what spells they can use it on.

As has been mentioned, this is a pretty weak ability. I would almost lean toward it being a permanent ability if we go with this, or the very minimum of 3+Cha/day.

About the added spell repetior. Khaalis, didn't you say that most people wanted us to limit the sorc's list? And yet, we are allowing them to access any good spell? But also, why are we really including a lineage spell list, if we are just giving them all this customability?
We have to remember conciseness again... I had worried early on that people would have to start flipping pages and pages to figure out to compare each lineage and it was going to get complicated. And now when a sorc picks this lineage, they have all these new spells to look at from both their own, and clerical lists. Its too much imo.

This is one point I have to make a personal statement from a game design point of view. Simplicity is one thing, worrying about people’s laziness is another.

The system is currently basic and simple in design, not very different from a domain, except that it grants domain “powers” at 1st, 8th, & 14th instead of just 1st.

In your example of the Good Domain, it grants a bonus to all Good Spells. Is there anywhere in the PHB that prepares a predefined list of just good spells? No. It is left to the player to do their homework. We don’t have to hand-hold every player as if they are stupid, uneducated or lazy. Sure there are some that may fit those molds, but we shouldn’t penalize the rest of the community, nor should we cater to those that fit these other molds. Especially since all characters have to sit and weigh options. 3E is based on the concept of choices. A fighter has to sit and do a fair amount of homework on feats to be well designed. A Wizard has to do quite a bit of homework to figure out not only the spells they have in their spellbook, but how to arrange those into daily preparation lists. If a player playing a sorcerer cannot look at a spell list other than the Sorcerer/Wizard list because it is too much work – they shouldn’t be playing a spellcaster in the first place. And if we begin to remove game design aspects because we feel people are too lazy to do the basic research involved in their class/classes – then we shouldn’t be doing game designing.

As for the spell specifics in this case. Yes the Celestial is being granted to good and light spells, but they are also being banned from evil and darkness spells - balance. A part of the sorcerer flavor is the access to exotic spells. It also fits the entire “lineage” aspect if that lineage taint that grants them their magic has some influence on the magic. The difference between the lineage list and allowing specific access is simple. The lineage spells “Dictate” powers that manifest in sorcerers of that particular lineage – they are an “embodiment” of how celestial blood manifests within sorcerers. However – does this mean that it is the ONLY celestial oriented powers a sorcerer may manifest? No. The sorcerer should have the option to have a strong or weak celestial effect on their spells. Some will ignore it and choose all of the standard sorcerer spell choices. Others will instead go for flavor and expand on the power inherent within their lineage. This “mechanic” also continues to provide a sense of logic and balance into the core concept of Muliclassing and magic item use.

As to the specific list:
Good/Light Spells Sorcerer:
Dancing Lights (Light) Sor0
Flare (Light) Sor0
Light (Light) Sor0
Protection from Evil (Good) Sor1
Daylight (Light) Sor3
Magic Circle against Evil (Good) Sor3
Sunburst (Light) Sor8

Good/Light Spells Non-Sorcerer:
Bless Water (Good) Clr1
Faerie Fire (Light) Drd1
Consecrate (Good) Clr2
Holy Smite (Good) Good4
Holy Sword (Good) Pal4
Dispel Evil (Good) Clr5
Hallow (Good) Clr5
Holy Word (Good) Clr7
Sunbeam (Light) Drd7
Holy Aura (Good) Clr8

So they gain 10 spells to their available spell list from outside the Sorcerer list, and most are not that powerful to begin with.

Evil/Darkness Spells Sorcerer:
Protection from Good (Evil) Sor1
Darkness (Darkness) Sor2
Magic Circle against Good (Evil) Sor3
Animate Dead (Evil) Sor4
Contagion (Evil) Sor4
Symbol of Pain (Evil) Sor5
Create Undead (Evil) Sor6
Eyebite (Evil) Sor6
Create Greater Undead (Evil) Sor8

Evil/Darkness Spells Non-Sorcerer:
Curse Water (Evil) Clr1
Deathwatch (Evil) Clr1
Death Knell (Evil) Clr2
Desecrate (Evil) Clr2
Deeper Darkness (Darkness) Clr3
Unholy Blight (Evil) Evil4
Dispel Good (Evil) Clr5
Unhallow (Evil) Clr5
Blasphemy (Evil) Clr7
Unholy Aura (Evil) Clr8

In exchange for the 10 new spells they loose access to 9 sorcerer spells. As well as any ability to use another 10 spells even if multiclassed or as magical items.

I am also thinking of adding… Shadow, Death & Fear as a restricted Types:
Sorcerer
Cause Fear (Fear) Sor1
Scare (Fear) Sor2
Fear (Fear) Sor4
Phantasmal Killer (Fear) Sor4
Shadow Conjuration (Shadow) Sor4
Shadow Evocation (Shadow) Sor5
Circle of Death (Death) Sor6
Shadow Walk (Shadow) Sor6
Symbol of Fear (Fear) Sor6
Finger of Death (Death) Sor7
Project Image (Shadow) Sor7
Shadow Conjuration, Greater (Shadow) Sor7
Simulacrum (Shadow) Sor7
Shadow Evocation, Greater (Shadow) Sor8
Symbol of Death (Death) Sor8
Power Word Kill (Death) Sor9
Shades (Shadow) Sor9
Wail of the Banshee (Death) Sor9
Weird (Fear) Sor9

Non-Sorcerer
Bane (Fear) Clr1
Destruction (Death) Clr7
Doom (Fear) Clr1
Slay Living (Death) Clr5

That bans another 19 sorcerer spells and 4 mutliclass/magic item spells, bring the total to:
* 10 Sorcerer Spells Acquired from outside the Sorcerer list
* 28 Sorcerer Spells Lost
* 14 Spells inaccessible via multiclassing or magic items use

I would say this does a fine job of limiting the sorcerer’s spell list in a reasonable and logical manner related to their lineage. This is no more work than any other spellcaster choosing spells especially if they are restricted by PrC selections. This took me but a few minutes to scan the spells (took me 10 times as long to type it up).

hi folks. my 1st post here.

Welcome!

here's the root of the problem for me. this model doesn’t change how the sorceror uses magic. s/he still has spell slots {snip} this model still has them wagging their fingers around and chanting mumbo-jumbo to cast spells – and I think that all of this is still too close to wizards and how they do it. Kudos for easing the spell components restrictions, but to me, they should be gone completely. {snip} Basically, to sum up, I’d like sorcerors to have no spell slots, use power points; have a diff list of spells w/an easier ability to make up individual one of their own; have no material or somatic components; but have a tough concentration requirement and a distinct tell.

The reason for this has been discussed in the previous threads, however to summarize…
It was felt that this version of the sorcerer needed to be something that could be substituted into the PHB as a direct replacement for the core sorcerer. To do that, we are unfortunately bound by the existing magic system. Do I agree with it? No, not personally, but it is a design mechanic that we must stick with if the alt.core build is to be acceptable as a replacement to the core class.

Now note that this thread will eventually carry on to an Advanced Alt.Sorcerer (similar in nature to the advanced rules sets used in the Unearthed Arcanan and likely in the coming “Advanced” Handbook by Green Ronin. My original version of an alt.sorcerer (and likely my ultimate version in-house) utilizes the Spell Slot system but as Spell-Like Abilities. Thus, no components – which basically makes them similar to psionics, being activated by sheer will (or force of personality as it may be). I may also offer a spell-point variant as an advanced option as well, but it will likely be modified from the UA/Psionics system. Another system I am toying with is a rules derivative that allows the sorcerer to have spells that they know like the back of their hand (standard spells known) and can use as Spell-Like Abilities, but possibly as a Metamagic style ability - they also have the ability to craft a spell-effect on-the-fly (using core spells) that requires a combined spellcraft/concentration role and that has other associated costs similar to metamagic, say for example costs a slot one level higher than it would normally cost.

As for the spell system, again we are bound by what exists in the core books if we are to stick to the Mission of this thread. We want a class that makes sense to the flavor of the sorcerer, that works within the bounds of the core system, and that is balanced to the other classes in the core rules. To do that we are bound by the current spell lists.

For those that are seeking a TRUE Freeform spellcaster, where you make up spells on the fly, I would suggest reading the “Chaos Mage” book by Mongoose.

The observant among you may have noticed that my conception of sorcerors borders on the wotc definition of a psion. Guilty. But they failed so miserably defining the psion that the class is worthless. Think the 3E & 3.5E sorceror is weak? Play the psion. And the whole “psionics is different/no, it’s not” debate is tiresome and stupid.

I would disagree that the argument in and of itself is stupid. It is designed this way to leave it to the DM’s campaign style. There are many literary references to both styles and many people want to be able to define themselves if Psionics is nothing more than magic or if it is something entirely different. For example in the new Realms Players Guide – it specifically states that Psionics IS magic, but that comes from within each individual Psion rather than from the weave/shadow-weave. Thus, it is effected by all rules that apply to magic – with the exception that the Psion cannot be denied their magic on the whim of Mystra or Shar. Now personally I would say in this world then, that EITHER Psions or Sorcerers exists as a mechanic as they are both being defined as the same thing. For such a ruling, we would have to turn to an advanced rules set and find a way to combine the 2 classes into one concept that works as well as a revamp of the psionic system to allow for more “spell-like” flexibility. Now once we see the revised psionic rules, much of the psion may be fixed.

IMC, I already have a slimmed down Sorcerer spell list based on Monte Cooke’s Eldritch books.

I have re-looked at the Monte list again, and I just find it too restrictive on an arbitrary basis. I don’t see a lot of logic behind the spell restrictions.

Interesting points from Gordo. Long ago I used to be all for power points,
until I saw how WotC implemented them. I don't like them in the psionics book, and I don't like them in unearthed arcana either. The reasons aren't important, and I don't want to sidetrack the thread.

Out of curiosity have you seen the Power Point System from AEG’s Magic?

I'll just offer up Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed and World of Time d20 as counterexamples of how the spell slot mechanic can offer a good balance between flexibility and power.
Solution: adopt the Arcana Unearthed rule for sorcerers:
I) 3 slots of level N can be traded up to one of level N+1
II) 1 slot of level N can be split into two slots of level N-1
IIa) Slots derived by splitting a higher-level spell can't be further split!

I don’t have Wheel of Time, so I have no reference there, but I personally am not a big fan of the AU spell mechanic. That’s just a personal note, but I find it to be a bit clunky. I will need to go back and re-read it but if I am remembering correctly off the top of my head, you have basically two tables – a spells known and a spells prepared?
Where do the 1, 2 and 2a options above come from in the AU?

Sorcerers should have a more restricted spell list, with focus on manipulation of raw power/energy and fewer spells with 'academic' feel.
Personally, what I see in the sorcerer is the potential for nearly infinite variety! I'd be more inclined to open up their spell list to allow them to learn any existing spell, so that each sorcerer is fully customized to the player's conception of their background and bloodline. There are a couple of things (cure spells for example) that would need to be restricted or otherwise reined in, but not too many. Almost any spell can be justified with a bit of flavor text or a tweak to the campaign world, and there are a lot of 'academic' spells out there that are used as spell-like abilities by powerful monsters (Symbol, Gate, etc.). The upshot is that while there is many a flash-bang sorcerer out there, I like a world in which there are also shadow sorcerers, psion-sorcerers, "lucky" sorcerers, fey sorcerers, and many other player concepts.

The only way t have infinite variety is to base a free-form magic system off of the flavor quote:
“Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”
This as I mentioned before has been attempted b Mongoose’s Chaos Mage.

As for flavor sorcerers – I obviously agree.
I may take a shot at the Shadow sorcerer. The Psion sorcerer is already covered pretty well.

 

[Khaalis]

Well since there is no more discussion to be had on the Celestial & Fiendish lineages, I have added another to Post #2... Draconic Lineage.

 

[Jens]

Hi again. I gave some comments on part which were fairly summarily dismissed, but here I go again

Isn't this thing turning into a monster? It seems like tha base class write-up is way longer than the PHB version, and if the lineages are included, it becomes longer than any class in the PHB. Imo, a serious trim is needed for this to be useable. But then that's a matter of opinion; I'd prefer a much simpler structure rather than having to write/read so much text for each lineage. I think an amount of space similar to that devoted to specialist wizards or cleric domains should be sufficient.

Also, I think this project could gain from be divided into two parts: Changes to the base sorcerer and an extension for sorcerers with lineages. But it seems like this project is based on all sorcerers having a pronounced lineage so I guess this suggestion is less than useful.

Well - I guess I mostly want to suggest that you standardize and trim things; as it is, it just seems too long.

Btw: The frightful presence -thing for draconic lineages seems like a good idea. Would you mind if I steal it and maybe some other ideas? As you can see above, I would do some things differently and might end up putting it together.

 

[Khaalis]

Hi again. I gave some comments on part which were fairly summarily dismissed, but here I go again
Isn't this thing turning into a monster? It seems like tha base class write-up is way longer than the PHB version, and if the lineages are included, it becomes longer than any class in the PHB. Imo, a serious trim is needed for this to be useable. But then that's a matter of opinion; I'd prefer a much simpler structure rather than having to write/read so much text for each lineage. I think an amount of space similar to that devoted to specialist wizards or cleric domains should be sufficient.
Also, I think this project could gain from be divided into two parts: Changes to the base sorcerer and an extension for sorcerers with lineages. But it seems like this project is based on all sorcerers having a pronounced lineage so I guess this suggestion is less than useful.
Well - I guess I mostly want to suggest that you standardize and trim things; as it is, it just seems too long.
Btw: The frightful presence -thing for draconic lineages seems like a good idea. Would you mind if I steal it and maybe some other ideas? As you can see above, I would do some things differently and might end up putting it together.

I am sorry if you feel you were “dismissed”. I never dismiss anything on purpose. I (and others) may have disagreed with your assessments but always with comments and reasons why. Your views just didn’t match the majority view of where the class was going which is probably why you felt dismissed even though the points were addressed.

I understand, and have repeatedly stated, that not everyone can be pleased by a class design. There is NO such thing as the perfect class. People even attempt to re-write the most basic class in the game (the Fighter) because people can’t even agree on that class, much less something as controversial as the sorcerer.

On Genericism - This design build does include a generic Sorcerer. If people such as yourself wish to have only a generic sorcerer – they can use the unknown lineage template or the draconic lineage (etc.) - absorbing into the “core” write-up and all else dropped as options if that is what they really wished to do. That is why the class is built as it is. It allows customization ability but in the design principle of a simple class design. This same basic premise is used in Arcana Unearthed with the Witch and Totem Warrior classes. You are of course welcome to write your own version. As I have said in the past, you wouldn’t be the 1st nor the last.

As for the length of the base class write-up… in actuality, if you compare the two write-ups from “Class Features” onward (not including the table and flavor text and skills), the core class is (at about Size 8 font) 0.75 pages long or about 2 pages long with the full familiar sidebar information included. The core material here is just under 1 page so it is, in fact just about the same length or shorter than the PHB material.

The lineages are also not to be included in the core class write-up. They are an addendum addition, similar to Domains. The lineages are examples, and by no means exhaustive – also similar to domains, and can be expounded on at will by others.
As for the length of the lineages… what is so complex about them? They are quite simple in design but I have attempted to make them clear and unambiguous unlike some of the PHB rules.
Name: Description
Benefits:
Special Limitations:
Lineage Spells:
Lineage Abilities: 8th, 14th, 20th

Hope that helps some.