D&D 5E Sorcerer spell chains

[Blue]

In discussions about the Sorcerer and spells known, I've before said that I wish they knew less but could do more with what they had - that they had their talents and could twist those in ways that others couldn't but wouldn't have the breadth of different types of magic.

In a recent thread, [MENTION=6932123]Kinematics[/MENTION] had an idea about upcasting that I ran with in a way that would require the least changes to the system but hit my goals. I'd love to get your help in putting it together.

His idea was allowing upcasting to increase the scope of the spell instead of just some factor. For example Disguise Self doesn't take concentration, and Alter Self can do the same things plus more, but requires concentration. So there's use cases for both. This made me think - what happens if you could get both? There's a lot of overlap, so it's not worth two of your spells know, but it's in-line with Sorcerer's ability to manipulate magic if you think about it as one effect that they can realize different ways.

The basic idea is that sorcerers get less spells known, but can pick chains of spells as a single (?) pick.

For example, a chain of spells may be "Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, True Polymorph". (Though I think the highest level spells might not be in chains.)

Off the top of my head, I was thinking Spells Known would be half current plus one. So a 1st level sorcerer gets the same, but a 20th level sorcerer has 8 instead of 15 - but those 8 are really about 24-32 (?) related spells in 8 categories. The plus one helps out lower level casters, since chains will have spells they can't cast yet.

I was unsure if I should do something about spells that show up on more than one chain a sorcerer has taken. I was thinking that maybe it cost 1 less SP to apply metamagic to that spell. (Total, not cumulative if one 3+ lists - that's likely abusable.)

I am considering that if a sorcerer wants to swap when they level up, there needs to be at least one spell in common between the original and new chain.

I'm going back and forth, but maybe the highest level spells shouldn't be in chains. You can always use a pick to just pick a spell, even one from a chain you already know to get the 1 SP metamagic bonus.

Here's a few spell chains, help me design others. They should be a mix of levels but more low-level than high to mimic how spells are picked now, and not just "best in class" spells - we want to see sorcerers being able to "twist their trick" to be the best fit for a situation by presenting variations on a tight theme.

Transmogrify: Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph
Adapt: Enlarge/Reduce, Protection from Energy, Stoneskin
Enhance: Jump, Enhance Ability, Water Breathing

Obey: Charm Person, Suggestion, Dominate Person
Command: Dominate Beast, Dominate Person, Dominate Monster
Cower: Fear, ??, ??
Be Still: Hold Person, Hold Monster, ??
Be Fleet: Expeditious Retreat, Haste, ??
Insanity: Crown of Madness, Confusion, ??

Phantasm: Silent Image, Hypnotic Pattern, Seeming
Illusion: Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Major Image
(So many spells on the same theme.)

Thunderstorm: Thunderwave, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning
Snowstorm: Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm
Cloud: Fog Cloud, Cloudkill, ??
Rays of the Sun: Scorching Blast, Daylight, Sunbeam

Elsewhere: Blink, Banishment, Teleport Circle
Secret Paths: Misty Step, Dimension Door, Arcane Gate

Lighter than Air: Feather Fall, Levitate, Gaseous Form
Skyward Bound: Jump, Levitate, Fly

Arachnaphilia: Spider Climb, Web, Insect Plague

Sight Beyond Sight: Detect Magic, Darkvision, Clairvoyance

Alter Matter: Shatter, Knock, Creation

Mastery of the Word: Comprehend Languages, Suggestion, Tongues

Greater Arcana: Detect Magic, Counterspell, Dispel Magic

This is just a sample of some chains. Do they work for you; is three the right number? Should they include higher level spells as well?

What chains would you make? (Repeats of spells are fine, as long as it's tightnly on theme.)

 

[jaelis]

Its a neat idea but seems like a lot of work

color spray - hypnotic pattern
invisibility – greater invisibility
disguise self – seeming
phantasmal force – mental prison
fog cloud – sleet storm
misty step – far step – teleport
see invisibility – true seeing
dominate beast – dominate person – dominate monster
charm person – charm monster
suggestion – mass suggestion
power word pain - power word stun – power word kill
hold person – hold monster
crown of madness – enemies abound
ray of sickness – blight – horrid wilting
investiture of flame – ice – stone – wind

 

[Kinematics]

It's an interesting idea, and in some ways reminds me of another idea I had, for custom metamagics (metamagic options for a select set of spells that were customized for and exclusive to particular sorcerer origins).

Overall, though, the spell chain idea will need some serious thought into balance and how to make it work. I'll see what thoughts I've had on it when I have time later today.

 

[FrogReaver]

Change his spell list entirely. Pick spells from all spells in the game that make sense for the chain them. Each chain should get 3-5 spells. (Some may get more some may get less). Anything that doesn't fit into a chain drop. Possibly allow him to learn a few non-chain spells in addition to his chain spells.

Alternatively you may could get by somewhat easier if sorcerers could only cast specific schools of magic. Perhaps he only ever learns spells from 2-3 schools of magic but gets a few new metamagic options (maybe depending on school) and maybe gets the ability to use a free metamagic per spell with no limit on how many metamagic options can be applied to it?

 

[steeldragons]

I think it's a great idea, and would have made sorcerer's in general, a significantly more flavorful and interesting class concept.

"Themed" magic + metamagic would be my take. I agree with Frogreaver that the concept is better served (and made all the more interesting) by using spells from across the spectrum that work/fit to the particular theme.

I would, perhaps, limit the amount of themes somewhat... leave additional ones for tables to homebrew themselves off of the template the class/subclass structure provides.

I think 3 is a good number to work, if you can find/pick spells of each spell level to fit the theme. 2 is probably easier. Some of the lists you present offer spells of wildly varying spell/power levels. And I don't think that, particularly, works. It needs to be uniform across the themes just for fairness/"balancing" purposes.

Off the top of my head (just making things up as I go along) I would give the options/breakdowns something like this:
Sorcerer
1st. lvl: 3 cantrips, 2 1st level spells.
2nd: metamagic 1
3rd: 2 2nd level spells.
4th: metamagic [hereafter "MM"] 2.
5th: 2 3rd level spells
6th: MM3
7th: 2 4th level spells
8th: MM4
9th: 2 5th level spells
10th: MM5

So half way through the game, and I would argue where the vast bulk of the game is played, a Sorcerer would "know" 13 spells (including cantrips) and 5 metamagic shaping/forming tricks to so with that magic. I might actually assign metamagics, but I suppose players would probably desire the choices themselves.

Fire Sorcerer
1st: Control Flames [EE], Firebolt, Resistance (fire only), Burning Hands (natch), Jump (fire jets from your hands or feet propel you to amazing jumps).
3rd: Flaming Orb, Pyrotechnics
5th: Fireball, Fly (extension of the Jump foot jets...c'mon every fire-using superhero can fly.)
7th: Fire Shield (warm/fire damage only), Wall of Fire
9th: Immolation [EE], Conjure Elemental (Fire only).

Water Sorcerer
1st: Shape Water [EE], Ray of Frost, Resistance (cold only), Create/Destroy Water, Fog Cloud.
3rd: Hold Person (encase/"squeeze" people in water up to their necks), Snillog's Snowball Swarm [EE, offer cold damage from snow or bludgeoning damage from "water" spheres, caster's choice]
5th: Tidal Wave [EE], Wall of Water (EE)
7th: Control Water, "Black Tentacles" (the "tentacles" are actually composed of water shaped and controlled by the sorcerer)
9th: Maelstrom [EE], Conjure Elemental (Water only).

Radiance/Light Sorcerer
1st: Dancing Lights, Light, Sacred "Flame" (light bolt), Faerie "Fire", Shield of "Faith" (low level light/force field)
2nd: Darkvision, Invisibility (wrapping light around you to disappear)
3rd: Daylight, Magic Circle
4th: Greater Invisibility, "Resilient" Sphere (more powerful light/force field)
5th: Dispel Evil/Good, Scrying (look into a light source or generate your own "window" of light to peer into)

...and so on. I'd probably do an Earth, Air/Weather, Shadow, Mind/Mental-based...maybe Nature/Plants? Illusion-based. Shapeshifting/Alteration-based. Healer. You can just keep going as much as you want...but I don't know if you need to do more than 7 or 8 (like the cleric and wizard, respectively) and leave the rest to supplements and individual tables to come up with.

 

[Kinematics]

OK, my thought on the spell chain design is that it should not replace the standard spell selection. It adds complexity, and feels like it would add a bit too much power, while also reducing the number of picks, which feels annoying for a spellcaster. Only allowing picks every other level would be kind of frustrating, even with the extra spells.

More, though, the spell chains feel like areas where the sorcerer has really focused and specialized, so they should be special rewards. My thought would be that you get to pick one spell chain at levels 5, 10, and 15, instead of your normal spell picks, and that you don't get to replace spell chain picks except at levels that are multiples of 5, like the picks themselves are (so at 10, 15, 20). (Can still do normal spell swapping otherwise.)

Assuming each spell chain is 3 spells, you'd effectively get 6 additional spells, which is in line with a lot of suggestions for additional spells for sorcerers.


For each chain, I'd probably try to make sure the spells were related in such a way that you could see someone having learned how to tweak the same spell in different ways. So, for example, Alter Self and Polymorph are both transmutation spells, while Disguise Self is an illusion spell. As such, I'd want the non-concentration version of Alter Self, which effectively acts like Disguise Self, rather than Disguise Self itself, as the third option of that chain.

Meanwhile, the lower level spells of a chain should provide some benefit other than just "lower level spell slot". You don't take Charm Person with Charm Monster in the same chain, because Charm Person offers nothing that Charm Monster can't do.


Many of the suggested sets look good. Going to list the ones I think work well, some of which are repeats, some of which I've modified, but with the spell level for each spell in brackets to get a comparative feel.



"Disguise Self" [1], Alter Self [2], Polymorph [4]

— A transformation-based Disguise Self, ie: non-concentration Alter Self.

Charm Person [1], Suggestion [2], Dominate Person [5]

— Various ways to manipulate a person's mind.

Silent Image [1], Hypnotic Pattern [3], Seeming [5]

Mirror Image [2], Major Image [3], Seeming [5]

— Illusions

Phantasmal Force [2], Hypnotic Pattern [3], Fear [3]

— Mental assaults

Web [2], Slow [3], Hold Monster [5]

— Limit, slow, and stop a target.

Jump [1], Levitate [2], Fly [3]

— Various ways to move someone. Levitate is useful on an enemy target. Jump is non-concentration, and lasts one minute.

Color Spray [2], Hypnotic Pattern [3], Confusion [4]

— Disorientation and confusion illusion effects. Confusion doesn't seem that great, as it's a much smaller radius than Hypnotic Pattern, and isn't as effective, so this set is debatable.

Crown of Madness [2], Enemies Abound [3], Confusion [4]

— Insanity.

Fog Cloud [1], Sleet Storm [3], Ice Storm [4]

— Cold weather effects of various types. Skip Cone of Cold, as that should be its own pick.

Thunderwave [1], Thunder Step [3], Storm Sphere [4]

— Lighting/Thunder effects of various types. Skip Lightning Bolt, as that should be its own pick.

Aganazzar’s Scorcher [2], Pyrotechnics [2], Wall of Fire [4]

— Fire effects of various types. Skip Fireball, as that should be its own pick. Someone iffy on the first spell, as it should be something that won't be obsoleted by the other expected spells.

Water Breathing [3], Water Walking [3], Watery Sphere [4]

— Water effects of various types.

Spider Climb [2], Web [2], Insect Plague [5]

— Insect theme effects.

Detect Magic [1], Darkvision [2], See Invisibility [2]

— Perception enhancements

Comprehend Languages [1], Suggestion [2], Tongues [3]

— Understanding communication, and being able to influence with it. Comprehend Languages allows understanding writing as well as speaking, while Tongues allows others to understand you.




Really there's tons of connected spells, so designing a list of "approved" chains will likely be difficult. Spells that don't connect under one theme, might connect under another.

 

[steeldragons]

They are kinda addictive once you get going, aren't they? Figured I should do the couple of extra guys we already have in 5e.

Shadow Sorcerer
1st: Chill Touch, "Mage" Hand (of shadow stuff), Minor Illusion (visual only, images formed of shadows), Floating Disk (of "solid" shadow), "Color" Spray (a blast of shadowy darkness instead of light)
2nd: Darkvision, Darkness
3rd: Nondetection (masked in darkness/shadow), "Spirit" Guardians (summoning shadowy spirits/shapes to deal necrotic damage only)
4th: Black Tentacles (tendrils of shadow stuff), Dimension Door (must enter and exit from a shadow/darkness within range)
5th: Creation, Scrying (look into a shadow/darkness or generate your own "window/monitor" of shadow to peer into)

Storm Sorcerer
1st: Gust [EE], Shocking Grasp, Resistance (lightning or cold only), Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
2nd: Gust of Wind, Dust Devil [EE]
3rd: Call Lightning, Fly
4th: Ice Storm, Storm Sphere [EE]
5th: Control Winds [EE], Cone of Cold

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] I think the further you go down this path the more you realize that what you're really aiming for is (a) more tightly themed sorcerers, and (b) a more adaptive magic system for sorcerers. For me personally, that would looks like something quite unlike the current spell system; for example, I'd imagine sorcerers having unique "cantrips" they could perform at-will or expend a resource to "power up" in various ways (kind of reflecting your spell chain ideas, where the more you power up, say, "Illusory Guise", the more it becomes similar to a disguise self, or alter self, or seeming.

The challenge of fitting existing spells to that sort of template is that you invariably end up with square pegs in round holes...

Transmogrify: Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph
Adapt: Enlarge/Reduce, Protection from Energy, Stoneskin
Enhance: Jump, Enhance Ability, Water Breathing

Does water breathing belong in Adapt or Enhance? I don't know. In fact, were I a player making a choice between "Adapt" and "Enhance" I'd probably shrug because those names don't tell me much.

But my perspective certainly would require a more serious overhaul of the sorcerer than you're contemplating.

 

[tardigrade]

[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] Does water breathing belong in Adapt or Enhance?

Why not both?

I like this concept; it sounds a lot like 'Path Magic' for 2e, which was an article in Dragon magazine a while back. I'll try to dig it out. But I do remember that with that there was no issue with spells appearing on multiple 'paths' and I can't really see why that would be a problem either. It's more like clerical spheres than schools.

 

[Ath'kethin]

Why not both?

I like this concept; it sounds a lot like 'Path Magic' for 2e, which was an article in Dragon magazine a while back. I'll try to dig it out. But I do remember that with that there was no issue with spells appearing on multiple 'paths' and I can't really see why that would be a problem either. It's more like clerical spheres than schools.

It was Dragon #216. I've been kicking aroind the idea of revamping the 5e spell system along those lines for a while; to.ke the entire "paths" concept makes way more sense than the RAW approach. For all the reasons listed in the Dragon article.

So I really like the OP's idea, though when approached through the Path Magic lens it seems almost better suited to wizards than sorcerers.