Sorcerers and metamagic

[Margaiaman]

Ok. The rule looks pretty clear in the book. Cast a metamagic spell, it takes a whole round to cast it as a sorcerer.

I saw someone talking about using meta magics with a sorcerer and it counting as a full-attack action. In other words, cast the spell on your turn and be limited to a five foot step.

Where did this idea come from? Is it an errata or sage clarification? I'd like to know before tomorrow night's game!

 

[Crothian]

You always get a 5ft step with a full round action. No matter if the full round is spent with mutliple attacks, or casting.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I think he meant the full round part, not the 5 foot step part.

That is explained/clarified in Tome and Blood, page 81. Most confuse the full round action required with a 1 round casting time. Essentially, the sorcerer has to take a full action to cast a 1 action spell with metamagic. This works just like a fighter taking a full action for more than one attack.

 

[apsuman]

yeah, what Dr. Zoom said.

To add, this means that a metamagiced spell cast by a sorcerer still goes off the same round it started.

g!

 

[KarinsDad]

Making Sorcerers the best class for metamagic.

I was once contemplating taking a Sorcerer/Incantrix (from MoF), but I opted for a Wizard/Incantrix instead.

But, a Sorcerer/Incantrix would be extremely versatile compared to a normal Sorcerer.

 

[Oni]

yeah, what Dr. Zoom said.

To add, this means that a metamagiced spell cast by a sorcerer still goes off the same round it started.

g!

Do you have something to back this up that is a little more clear (i.e. says that when casting a spell that is normally 1 action with metamagic it goes off on the same initiative count, rather than at the start of your next action), because your interpretation seems to be one possible one, but not the sole one. I've read it about five times now, but this clarification in T&B doesn't seem to indicate to me the difference between casting a summon monster 1 and a metamagic'd magic missle.

Casting a spell as a fullround action vs. casting a spell that has a casting time of one full round (which are cast as full round actions) seems to be really splitting hairs to me, and I would be very appreciative if someone could point me to a second source that states this more clearly one way or the other.

(I play a sorcerer, but it is important to me to know for sure before I approach my DM about this.)

 

[CoopersPale]

Making Sorcerers the best class for metamagic.

I don't know about that....

You can't get any benefit from quicken spell with a sorceror.

And that can really hurt.
Being able to sling a second (or third spell with haste) is pretty nice.

Still, so is "on the fly" maximisation/empowerment.

I see it as fairly balanced IMO.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't know about that....

You can't get any benefit from quicken spell with a sorceror.

And that can really hurt.
Being able to sling a second (or third spell with haste) is pretty nice.

Still, so is "on the fly" maximisation/empowerment.

I see it as fairly balanced IMO.

How does a Wizard cast a Quickened Spell?

He studies it, or he puts it in an item, possibly a scroll.

How does a Sorcerer cast a Quickened Spell?

He puts in in an item, possibly a scroll.

So, yes, the Sorcerer must put a Quicken Spell into an item in order to get the benefit. But, that's one metamagic feat out of over a dozen (throughout the books).

Wizard in a Silence spell. Opps (typically).

Sorcerer with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, not a problem.

With regard to metamagic, Sorcerers are supreme. I do not consider a slight weakness in one metamagic feat out of over a dozen to be that big of a problem.

Remember, Quicken Spell adds 4 levels to the spell. Until they get to real high level, there just are not that many high level slots for Wizards to Quicken. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, can cast Haste, or Extend Haste, or Silent Extend Haste, or whatever in order to emulate Quicken effects fairly quickly. The Wizard might have a few Hastes and/or Quickened spells, but the Sorcerer can cast dozens of Hastes at the same level.

Not really a contest considering all of the other metamagic feats that Sorcerers can use, especially if they go into a prestige class like Incantrix.

 

[hong]

Casting a spell as a fullround action vs. casting a spell that has a casting time of one full round (which are cast as full round actions) seems to be really splitting hairs to me, and I would be very appreciative if someone could point me to a second source that states this more clearly one way or the other.

Most rules questions come down to splitting hairs of varying thicknesses.

There are many types of full-round actions. You can't take a move when you do them, except for a 5-foot step, and the action is finished before the next person's turn in the initiative order. Casting a spell with a casting time of one full round is a full-round action, but with the added proviso that it is finished just before the start of your next turn in the initiative order. It's "special" in that regard.

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you have something to back this up that is a little more clear (i.e. says that when casting a spell that is normally 1 action with metamagic it goes off on the same initiative count, rather than at the start of your next action), because your interpretation seems to be one possible one, but not the sole one.

As far as I know, it is the sole interpretation. At least, I've never seen anyone question it so far.

PHB page 78

"If its normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard."

PHB page 125

"A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action, and it comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell."

Every definition in the book that talks about a spell extending until your next turn discusses spells that take 1 full round.

The only definition in the PHB for metamagic spells explicitly states that it is a full round action, not that it becomes a spell that takes 1 full round.

Based on this, both types of spells are full round actions, but one extends and the other does not.

PHB page 121

"When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity, page 122, and Special Initiative Actions, page 133)."

Nothing on either of these pages talk about metamagic spells.

I can find nothing in errata, clarifications, or the faq.

However, there are other indicators:

Repeat Spell has a second spell occur at the beginning of your next turn. If done by a sorcerer and the spells were 1 full round spells, then it should have mentioned whether two spell occur immediately, or one occurs in round two, another in round three.

Page 80 in Tome and Blood, again they distinguish betwen full round casting time, and metamagic for sorcerers of full round action.

This appears deliberate.

On page 5 of T&B, they caution against taking metamagic with a Sorcerer, NOT because they think a metamagic spell for them extends into the next round and could be more easily disrupted, but because they cannot take a move action (and hence only move 5 feet with it).

S&S says nothing on the subject that I could find.

The only conclusion that can be made is that if WotC wanted metamagic Sorcerer and Bard spells to be one full round spells, they sure went out of their way multiple times to not say that. They clearly indicate that they are full round actions instead.

Hence, I have to go with what is written. You cannot assume when talking about rules that if A is of type C and B is of type C, that A and B must be the same.