Sorcerers and metamagic
- Thread starter Margaiaman
- Start date
Right, Henrix. Putting a Quickened spell into a magic item is useless, because you must use an action to activate the item.
Quicken Spell seems to be an entirely wasted feat for sorcerers. Mind you, it might be worth wasting that slot if you need the prereq for something else: a epic sorcerer with Automatic Quicken Spell would be most happy. (That epic feat is one of the few in the ELH that explicitly don't extend casting time for sorcerer spells.)
Quicken Spell seems to be an entirely wasted feat for sorcerers. Mind you, it might be worth wasting that slot if you need the prereq for something else: a epic sorcerer with Automatic Quicken Spell would be most happy. (That epic feat is one of the few in the ELH that explicitly don't extend casting time for sorcerer spells.)
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Henrix said:
Um, no. Activating a magic item is a magic item is a standard item unless it is something else. Standard action is the default, but not a requirement. There are items in the PHB that are free actions to activate. I see nothing illogical about a Quickened Scroll or somesuch.
The other way around this problem is to pick up the feat that allows sorcerors to prepare spells. It costs them a precious feat, but it is quite sufficient to maintain their status as Metamagic kings.
Quicken isn't tactically important until Quickened Haste becomes available. That at level 12 at the earliest for sorcerors, a convenient moment to grab Quicken if he really wants it.
Henrix said:
Well, this is debatable.
"Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, a character can store a metamagic spell in a scroll, potion, or wand."
"Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. The character can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as the character casts a quickened spell."
"A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell."
"Description: Many magic items don't need to be activated. However, certain magic items need to be activated. Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item description indicates otherwise.)."
So, typically you would be correct. But, the item description of a Quicken Spell Scroll indicates otherwise. If any item would be an exception to the activation time rule, it would one with Quicken Spell on it.
T&B is quite clear that the metamagic portion of magic items such as Silent Spell on a scroll applies.
I agree that a Sorcerer must cast a Quicken Spell as a full round action, hence, it is worthless for him. The reason is that there is no "unless the item description indicates otherwise" type of caveat for normal spell casting. But, since that caveat exists for items and because the metamagic feat applies to the spell within the item, I cannot prescribe to the "must take a standard action" theory. It just doesn't make sense and the rules appear to support the opposite theory.
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Here's the way I visualize it: a scroll has already had most of the casting done at the time of scribing. All the reader needs to do is fill in the few missing bits that specify a target, and then "pull the trigger". That takes a certain amount of time because the user needs to read the symbols, understand them, and then follow the instructions. IMO quickening wouldn't help, because the time-consuming parts of casting (that Quicken would remove) aren't performed at activation time anyway.
Anyway. It looks like the rules could be interpreted either way on this one, so it's a matter of preference.
Anyway. It looks like the rules could be interpreted either way on this one, so it's a matter of preference.
AuraSeer said:
True.
I tend to not restrict things unless there is a extremely valid reason to do so. Differing visualizations of how magic work does not seem valid enough for me.
For example, just with the metamagic restrictions in the game, you can Quicken a 0th level spell into a Wand, or any spell onto a Scroll since according to the RULES, metamagic on scrolls, wands, or potions is restricted to total spell level for the item.
But, I blow this nonsense off.
If a player of mine wants to create a Quicken Potion of Cure Critical Wounds or Quicken Wand of Fireballs or anything else, it has a built in cost increment that will make it so expensive that it will not affect game balance.
This concept of "things cannot be done in the game" as opposed to "there is a cost associated with doing things" is for the birds, especially things which are not game mechanics, but rather campaign possibilities (such as a Wand of Meteor Swarm). IMO.
The rest of 3E is about hard choices, pros and cons, and associated costs. I have no idea why they are sometimes so restrictive on magic items. And, because WotC is restrictive in some areas, it seems like a lot of DMs are that way too.
Ridley's Cohort said:
Personally, I find other feats tend to work out better. But, Quicken can even be fairly good as a 9th level pick if that's the direction you want the Sorcerer to go.
For example, a 14h level Sorcerer might cast:
Quicken Haste (off scroll)
Shield
Mage Armor
if he wants to significantly boost his AC on round one.
But, a 10th level Sorcerer can get the exact same result with:
Quicken Shield (off scroll)
Haste
Mage Armor
Granted, the Quicken Haste gives more flexibility, especially with regard to casting Quicken Haste, normal spell, metamagic spell. But the Quicken Spell feat can be very nice once a Sorcerer gets to 10th level.
Course, either way, it is expensive to cast it off a scroll (but cheaper for the Quicken Shield in this example) and the rules do not allow for Quicken Haste in any item other than a scroll (although personally, I blow this off).
So, yes, Quicken is a expensive feat for a Sorcerer, but it is doable.
