Sorcerers too powerful?

[XunValdorl of Kilsek]

Comparing the Warlock to the Sorcerer is like comparing apples and oranges. All strikers are not supposed to do the same thing, thats why I think they should stop with the defender, striker, leader crap. Sorcerers are pure damage dealers while the Warlock has his curses and ability to go invisible and other cool things like that. Sorcerers are not melee fighters so AC is not a big deal.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I am sure there a places where a sorcerer is great but the same is for all classes. have a read of the WotC forum here people arguing that sorcerer's damage is so low!

There are so many powers and effects out there that you can use specific ones to support almost any argument. I don;t see sorcerers as over powered, although they are good straight forward damage dealers IMO. So much so that I am going to suggest to the guy that plays a Wiz in our game swap to sorcerer, he is much more interested in blasting baddies than annoying them with effects (and he is coming from previous Wiz kills everything editions).

 

[Pickles JG]

I had a look at the 2 classes, and it seems if you're focusing on damage then warlock and sorcerer single target damage is roughly the same, but sorcerer gets more multitarget options, where the warlock gets better status effects.

Neither of them can hold a candle to the real strikers for damage tho, ie ranger, rogue, barbarian.

Sorcerers can do more damage than any other striker but its split over several targets (the more they do the more it's split ). This is of course not as good as focused damage.

I'ts also only more with good target groupings (ie "in theory") & only a little bit more - superior weapons & Iron Armbands of Power make weapon strikers too good cf implement ones.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Comparing the Warlock to the Sorcerer is like comparing apples and oranges. All strikers are not supposed to do the same thing, thats why I think they should stop with the defender, striker, leader crap. Sorcerers are pure damage dealers while the Warlock has his curses and ability to go invisible and other cool things like that. Sorcerers are not melee fighters so AC is not a big deal.

They are not melee fighters but a lot (practically all) of their AE damage is close blast so they are often right in the thick of things.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Underpowered warlocks? Really? I have five words:

Improved. Fate. of. the. Void.

My party just knocked out three cursed foes with an AoE, so I get +6 to any d20 roll I like this turn? Yes, please.

FWIW my understanding of it is that IFotV gives +1 on top of whatever cumulative benefit you get from cursed foes going down. In your example you would have got +4 (still not shabby) rather than +6.

Doubling the benefit seems clearly over the top to me.

Cheers

 

[boolean]

I'm confused.

Why would you need a ruling on that when it says in the PHB that the Fate of the Void is cumulative in the description?

The part about it being cumulative isn't ambiguous, but the exact details of how the Improved FotV feat works were open to interpretation.

Interpretation 1: 3 cursed creatures die. I get (+1)x3 (for 3 creatures), +1 for IFotV. Total bonus: +4

Interpretation 2: 3 cursed creatures die. I get (+1+1 for IFotV)x3 . Total bonus: +6

The CS answer in the thread linked to earlier says that the second interpretation is the correct one.

 

[Fedifensor]

What level is that "amazing defensive ability" that adds your strength mod to all defenses?

Platinum Scales is a level 22 utility power that gives a power bonus to all defenses equal to your Strength modifier for the encounter. In addition, there's a level 9 daily called Adamantine Echo that gives a +2 power bonus to AC...unless you use Dragon Magic, in which case the bonus is equal to your Strength modifier.

I haven't read all the powers, but I have tried building a few sorcerers. Even with leather armor proficiency, their AC is still pretty bad, and dragon sorcerers have a giant, gaping hole instead of a reflex defense.

Dragon sorcerers actually have good defenses, when you factor in their utility powers. Nearly every level of utility powers gives a bonus:

• Level 2 - Dragonflame Mantle (Encounter, +1 power bonus to all defenses as immediate interrupt until the end of your next turn, plus do damage if someone still hits the sorcerer)
• Level 6 - Sudden Scales (Encounter, +4 power bonus to all defenses against triggering attack as immediate interrupt, bonus is 3 + Str mod if using Dragon Magic)
• Level 10 - Narrow Escape (Encounter, immediate reaction to take half damage from attack and then teleport), Fog Form (Encounter, immediate interrupt to become insubstantial until the end of your next turn)
• Level 16 - Draconic Majesty (Encounter, minor action to create a zone of fear in close burst 3 until the end of your next turn, enemies in zone take a penalty to hit you equal to your Strength modifier), Breath of Potency (Daily, get a +1 power bonus to all defenses until the end of the encounter, bonus increases to your Strength modifier until the end of your next turn whenever you use an arcane close attack)
• Level 22 - Platinum Scales (Daily, +Str mod power bonus to all defenses until the end of the encounter)

The dragon sorcerer can increase his defenses in several ways throughout his career. He can potentially get his Strength modifier to AC for three entire encounters, and to all defenses for two of those three encounters (Adamantine Echo, Breath of Potency, and Platinum Scales). Yes, his reflex defense will be lower than the others...but at least he has incentive to get his Dex to 15 for Sorcerer Implement Expertise. Since every character is goiing to have one weak defense, I don't consider a low Reflex a huge disadvantage.

 

[Mengu]

Interpretation 1: 3 cursed creatures die. I get (+1)x3 (for 3 creatures), +1 for IFotV. Total bonus: +4

Interpretation 2: 3 cursed creatures die. I get (+1+1 for IFotV)x3 . Total bonus: +6

FWIW, we've been using Interpretation 1 for our game. My warlock player didn't even consider the second interpretation as a possibility. When in doubt, I multiply first, then add.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

With the Warlock, it's hard to compare them to other strikers. They're more of a Striker/Controller with the way they can throw around status effects and do all sorts of crazy things with their curses. They also tend to focus a lot on single targets, whereas the Sorc has a LOT of multi-target blasts. The problem with those blasts though, is that it's very easy to get allies caught in them and then you can end up applying some of that huge damage potential to them.

Sorcerers, and most of the other strikers too for that matter, don't really seem to have the same ability to just screw over a single opponent like the Warlock can. Plus, while the Sorcerer gets extra damage multiple times per turn, the Warlock can curse every enemy in the encounter and reap huge benefits as the party drops them.

Really, the only big problem with the Warlock is the split stats, but that only really affects you if you let it. It's relatively easy, and should be even easier with Arcane Power out, to pick all of your powers to go with only one of your stats (CHA or CON). If more people would do that, I think that they would find the class working a lot better. Then you can throw in some of the new feats, like the one that lets you use two implements, to add to your damage and general utility, since their implements are both one-handed. All in all, the damage output won't be as sexy as the Sorcerer's, but the Warlock can really mess up some of those Elite and Solo monsters out there a lot better than the Sorcerer can.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

The dragon sorcerer can increase his defenses in several ways throughout his career. He can potentially get his Strength modifier to AC for three entire encounters, and to all defenses for two of those three encounters (Adamantine Echo, Breath of Potency, and Platinum Scales). Yes, his reflex defense will be lower than the others...but at least he has incentive to get his Dex to 15 for Sorcerer Implement Expertise. Since every character is goiing to have one weak defense, I don't consider a low Reflex a huge disadvantage.

Sorcerers in general, and especially dragon sorcerers, will be more up-front than warlocks, since sorceres have a lot of close powers that target everyone in the area. This means getting a sorcerer where there is access to a lot of enemies. I would feel much more comfortable playing a warlock than a sorcerer, but that's my play style.