sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

Another point on Sorcerers.

The Incantrix (Players Guide to Faerun) is a pretty strong PrC for them.

Sorcerer 6 / Incantrix X

It does have the Focused Study limitation, but the metamagic possibilities there are HUGE.


For example, at 13th level, she can do a Quickened Spell (even without having the Arcane Preparation feat) via Instant Metamagic once per day.

At 16th level, she has 6 regular feats and 4 metamagic feats. Compared to a 16th level straight Wizard who has 6 regular feats and 3 bonus (metamagic, item creation, or spell mastery) feats.

Also at 16th level, she could cast a 15D6 Maximized Empowered Cone of Cold as an 8th level spell (doing an average of 116 points of damage if the save is failed).

Course, I also like as anti-Rogue spells:

12D6 Entangling Maximized Empowered Repeating Scorching Ray (8th level spell) does an average of 126 points of damage (no saving throw) and (might) entangle the Rogue for 2 rounds.

16D6 Entangling Maximized Empowered Split Ray Repeating Scorching Ray (9th level spell) does an average of 158 points of damage (no saving throw) and (might) entangle the Rogue for 2 rounds.

Granted, these require a to hit roll, but the first one can be preceded with a Quickened True Strike (95% chance of hitting) and the second one has the Rogue entangled (-2 to touch AC due to -4 Dex penalty, still probably a 50% to 75% chance to hit for most capable Incantrix).

Not guaranteed, but still harmful to most Rogues (the look on the face of a player of a Rogue when s/he actually takes damage, especially serious damage, from a spell is sometimes priceless ).

 

[Thanee]

Another point on Sorcerers.

The Incantrix (Players Guide to Faerun) is a pretty strong PrC for them.

It's even stronger for wizards, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What issue of Dragon are these in?

The original set are in #311, and there is a follow-up article with more bloodlines in #325

The original article includes Air, Celestial, Draconic, Earth, Fey, Fiendish, Fire, and Water bloodlines, along with the extra associated feats. Some of the additional feats are tied to specific bloodlines, others may be taken by anyone with a bloodline.

The later article includes Anarchic, Axiomatic, Illithid, Necromantic (i.e. undead), Penumbra (i.e. plane of shadow), Plant, and Serpent bloodlines, and more associated feats.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thats great, but that's not an aspect of the Wizard class. We're comparing Socereres to Wizards, not who has what magic items.

Scribe Scroll is a class feature. Their ability to cast spells includes those they have put on scrolls. Wizard players are free to ignore this class feature, just like nobody's forcing them to take a familiar, but the class is designed on the assumption that all class features will be used.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Sorcerer shone pretty well in our group when we were trying to find some slave handlers. My Sorcerer was using magic to change his facial appearance to look like a potential slave buyer we had locked up at our place.

I had to cast it a few times that night as we went to different places and cast a few charm spells.

The Wizard of the party had Charm, but not the spell to alter your face and didn't have charm memorized and we were on a timeline with people being sold to creatures who ate humans, so we couldn't just keep stopping for a day and waiting.

Situations came up multiple times like that were you need to do something now, and the Wizard wasn't ready. If I hadn't had the spells ready we would have had to do something stupid like fight our way through things.

It's Anecdotal and some groups may never have time sensitive events (it's a constant when I GM or play in games), but I think it at least goes a step further to break the stereotype that Sorcerers are only good in combat and only extended combats show their strengths.

In our group, the Wizard was Mr Warspells and I was a bit more "sly". I think I did more damage in combat with illusionary magic than the Wizard did with his damage spells. Well, probobly not, but the illusionary magic was more helpful in and out of combat than the combat spells were.

This anecdote is interesting, but in the end it comes down to this: the wizard selected his spells poorly, focusing on spells that blow stuff up. The sorcerer selected a more useful loadout, which meant that more of his spells were useful in this particular situation. If there had been some hostile creatures looking for some adventurers to eat instead of encounters you were better off sneaking past, Mr Warspells would probably have done quite well. If there had been lots of planar enemies, an Abjurer would have been a major asset. It's entirely situational that the sorcerer happened to be so useful.

You chose to recount a situation in which the sorcerer was well prepared and the wizard wasn't. I could come up with a handful of situations in which sorcerers I've played with happened to be a bit at a loss and were really only able to blast their way out of a situation as a last resort, while the wizard had more options at his disposal. Incidentally, this is the big problem with the Warmage. Despite their wide spell selection, warmages are much more focused than sorcerers, and they pay for it by having only one solution to every problem: blast it!

The best sorcerers try to cover as much ground as they can with their limited number of spells, so that they're not caught off-guard. When I play sorcerers I usually end up taking one offensive spell and one buff spell each level, and then try to get creative with the utility spells to cover all my bases. It is possible to make do with the smaller number of spells known, but it can be tricky. I'm particularly fond of Shatter.

But this says little about flexibility and everything about careful spell selection, which goes for both classes (for any spellcasting class, actually). If the wizard had prepared a bunch of "sneaking past some guys" spells, it would have worked out better. And he probably could have done so, if he had chosen to. I assume he's used his Scribe Scroll ability to get scrolls of all your sorcerer's spells and added them to his spellbook, as he ought to. So even if he's unlikely to be able to zap the whole party with Disguise Self, he at least has the option of preparing a couple if it looks like you'll need to go undercover for a while.

Again, the sorcerer has much better staying power when the situation happens to be one he is capable of tackling. Disguise the whole party? Sure thing. A sorcerer focused on illusions is going to be great at sneaking around and fooling people. An illusionist will be too, but the illusionist can double as an artillery platform or a summoner if he really feels like it, while a theme-focused sorcerer is more likely to have to figure out how to fit his square peg into a round hole when the party has to pass through said hole.

 

[Jack Simth]

Again, the sorcerer has much better staying power when the situation happens to be one he is capable of tackling. Disguise the whole party? Sure thing. A sorcerer focused on illusions is going to be great at sneaking around and fooling people. An illusionist will be too, but the illusionist can double as an artillery platform or a summoner if he really feels like it, while a theme-focused sorcerer is more likely to have to figure out how to fit his square peg into a round hole when the party has to pass through said hole.

The Shadow line is so great for a Sorceror.... Shadow Conjouration (4th) and Shadow Evocation (5th) (+ upgraded versions at 7th, 8th, and 9th, of course) do such wonders for a Sorceror's flexibility ... assuming he's focused on illusions (E.g., Race: Gnome, Spell Focus(Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), and possibly Heighten Spell (for those pesky saves; added benefit: the dupped spell's DC is set to the emulating spell's DC.... which is raised by such feats...); Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration for those pesky saves.... and that's just the useful Core feats....). Need blasting? Shadow evocation line - automatically heightened to the emulating spell's level, even. Need flanking for the Roge? Shadow Conjouration emulates Summon Monster quite well - better, in some ways; a standard action rather than 1 round, and no need to mess with material components. Need a ride? Phantom Steed is Conjouration (Creation), as is Mount. Need something to keep the rain off? Tiny Hut is Evocation. Ah, the elemental is immune to fire? Fake a Lightning Bolt! Need a servant to fetch and carry? Conjouration(Creation) again.... and that's only one spell known at 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, and 9th levels (for the whole set of emulators). Other slots can be filled with utility & buff spells - staples like Invisibility, Blur, Displacement, Dimension Door or Fly - more illusion spells for more use from the feats, or things that don't permit SR (such as Acid Arrow). And that's just with what's in the PHB/SRD. If you add other sources, you can eventually get to the point where that extra will save simply doesn't matter at all....

Granted, there's drawbacks to such a method (such as only being able to emulate spells a few levels lower than the Wizard has available); but nobody can cover every base (well, except maybe pun-pun....) and there will always be drawbacks to any method.

 

[Denaes]

Scribe Scroll is a class feature. Their ability to cast spells includes those they have put on scrolls. Wizard players are free to ignore this class feature, just like nobody's forcing them to take a familiar, but the class is designed on the assumption that all class features will be used.

Ok, then Wizards win.

If the fact that they can scribe scrolls means that you automatically assume that they have dozens of scrolls on hand for every occasion automatically, then they have the most flexibility and versatility.

I've never seen someone who could afford to spend the time/money to do that, but in theory, it's possible to create a scroll of every spell you have so that you'll always have it on hand.
- so Wizards beat Sorcerers in usefullness because the Wizard comes with Scribe Scroll and the Sorcerer doesn't automatically have it.

Strangely enough, it's not the Wizards casting ability, but the fact that they can scribe as many scrolls as they would like in theory

 

[Denaes]

Originally Posted by Denaes
The Sorcerer shone pretty well in our group when we were trying to find some slave handlers. My Sorcerer was using magic to change his facial appearance to look like a potential slave buyer we had locked up at our place.

I had to cast it a few times that night as we went to different places and cast a few charm spells.

The Wizard of the party had Charm, but not the spell to alter your face and didn't have charm memorized and we were on a timeline with people being sold to creatures who ate humans, so we couldn't just keep stopping for a day and waiting.

Situations came up multiple times like that were you need to do something now, and the Wizard wasn't ready. If I hadn't had the spells ready we would have had to do something stupid like fight our way through things.

It's Anecdotal and some groups may never have time sensitive events (it's a constant when I GM or play in games), but I think it at least goes a step further to break the stereotype that Sorcerers are only good in combat and only extended combats show their strengths.

In our group, the Wizard was Mr Warspells and I was a bit more "sly". I think I did more damage in combat with illusionary magic than the Wizard did with his damage spells. Well, probobly not, but the illusionary magic was more helpful in and out of combat than the combat spells were.

This anecdote is interesting, but in the end it comes down to this: the wizard selected his spells poorly, focusing on spells that blow stuff up.

No, don't change the subject. The only thing it came down to was that you said:

The sorcerer does certainly shine, however, in situations that require voluminous expenditure of party resources. It's what they're built for.

I was attempting to show that Sorcerers can shine in normal day to day use because of their flexibility.

The thing with the Wizard... any spell selections you make are poor in hindsight if other spells would have been a better choice. And we wern't playing in some "Scrolls Unlimited" campaign were Wizards had scrolls flowing out of their robes because they had the ability to make them. The wizard was spending his money on other things and we didn't have a whole lot of downtime.

The wizard expected combat and we did see combat and he was usefull. But he wasn't expecting that we would have to go through a bunch of non-combat trickery.

Thats the only point anyone pro-sorcerer has been trying to make. The Sorcerer is Flexible in their casting method because they don't need to choose spells.

And we're comparing mechanics, not player minds. Not everyone will be the all knowing Doc Akward with (real world) magic vision to be prepared for everything. From 1e, I've played wizards and I've played with over a dozen other players who played wizards and all have just ended up with a selection of spells that were useless for one reason or another.

I've also played other game systems where you don't need to memorize spells and I've seen a remarkable difference in Wizard players in the other systems (same player, other system).

 

[Denaes]

Here is what I have after all I've read and discussed. Just the facts of whats in the book, not based on how well/poor some players can divine the future or tactically play the system.

A "+" is something that is mechanically superior to the other class.

A "-" is something that is mechanically inferior to the other class.

A "o" is something that is pretty equal to the other class.\

+Casting Spells: The Sorcerer is mechanically a much more flexible caster. They can decide what they want to cast on the fly, including modifying spells with Metamagic Feats. The Sorcerer will also, in general, end up having more spell slots to cast - though is often a level behind the Wizard in gaining access to a spell level.

-Known Spells: The Sorcerer has a finite list of spells. This is enough to get the Sorcerer going and give them the advantage over a Wizard for a specific niche (Combat seems popular, but there are other niches) but overall the Sorcerer sacrafices much in their selection. They loose their niche if they diversify too much and if they specialize in a niche, they run a high chance of being irrelevent at times. They can retroactively change known spells at a later point, but it's pretty limited.

-Bonus Feats: None. Obviously a very lacking area..

-Class Abilities: Familiar + Cast Sorcerer Spells. Familiar is alright, but nothing great. And even if it was the best class ability in the game, the Wizard has it as well.

-Primary Abilility Score: This shouldn't really matter, but it does come up. Cha is pretty poorly utilized in D&D (you want to see it get it's due? Check out Spycraft 2.0. Str is a dumpstat compared to Cha) and in this comparison, the Wizard using Int is much more powerful granting many extra skill points... just for being really good at magic. At least the Bard is built in using Charisma based skills.

oSkills: They're pretty evenly matched skillwise. They both have a base of 4sp and they both have very similar class skills... including profession ::shakes head:: Wizards are more likely to have more skill points due to their Prime Spellcasting Ability, but as I mentioned that elsewere, it's not factored here.

+Weapons & Armour: Small victory it may be, but Sorcerers are proficient in all simple weapons.

oOther Mechanics: Both Wizard & Sorcerer progress their BAB & Saves exactly the same.

-Casting Spells: The Wizard is mechanically a less flexible caster than the Sorcerer. A certain level of strategy must go into choosing what spells you want, and even then there is no guarantee that you'll guess right. There are ways to leave slots open, but it requires 15 minutes and while that sometimes does the trick, it's just not as powerful as not having to worry about which spells to memorize. Now this isn't to say that there is anything poor, wrong or bad with this method of casting. As casting goes, it's nice. Sorcerers casting is nicer though.

+Known Spells: While the Sorcerer has a finite list of spells, the Wizard as a potentially infinite list of spells. In theory, the Wizard could learn every spell ever made and with proper forknowledge, could bring a devistatingly specific array of spells on hand.

+Bonus Feats: 4 free feats. In my book 4 beats 0, so the Wizard wins here.

+Class Abilities: Familiar + Cast Wizard Spells & Scribe Scrolls. The Sorcerer can cast their own variety of spells and Familiar as well. The Scribe Scrolls ability puts them on top here.

+Primary Abilility Score: Cha for a Sorcerer isn't that useful. It helps a skill or two... a little. A high Int helps all of the Wizards knowledge spells & Spellcraft... and also has the added benefit of sliding at least (with a +1 bonus) 13 extra skill points - and that would be a pretty poor 20th level Wizard. Potentially closer to 40-50 by 20.

oSkills: They're pretty evenly matched skillwise. They both have a base of 4sp and they both have very similar class skills... including profession ::shakes head:: Wizards are more likely to have more skill points due to their Prime Spellcasting Ability, but as I mentioned that elsewere, it's not factored here.

-Weapons & Armour: Wizards only have a select few weapons, compared to Sorcerers having a whole list. Not a huge loss as Wizards have the important weapons like crossbows. Well important for most Wizards & Sorcerers (to be stereotypical)

oOther Mechanics: Both Wizard & Sorcerer progress their BAB & Saves exactly the same.

Overall, as a class, the Wizard has more things going for it. It seems that the designers placed such an importance on the Sorcerers method of casting that they figured it alone stood against a Wizards casting, spell selection & bonus feats. I'd say that is definately debatable.

As casters, just taking casting into consideration, I'd say that they two classes are fairly even, with two different stregnths. The Sorcerer will have to choose a focus, and that area of specialty they can metamagic, switch up and cast more of. But they're definately lacking in overall diversity that the Wizards have. The two do even out (according to D&D designers the Sorcerer's casting & spells not only outdo the Wizards, but by 5 feats worth... I don't agree with that). Now obviously personal campaigns will make one more important and personally everyone has a choice on wether they want the limited flexibility or a tome full of more rigid magic.

I'd say if the Sorcerers were thrown a few feats (even if they were pre-picked) they would be pretty equal.

 

[Thanee]

The original set are in #311, and there is a follow-up article with more bloodlines in #325

Isn't that in UA as well?

Bye
Thanee