sorcerers

[Denaes]

And, just because the Wizard can EVENTUALLY teleport (i.e. in 15 minutes or the next day) does not mean that he is capable of handling the current situation. If you need Teleport and you need it NOW, it matters not a whit that the Wizard has it in his spellbook if he does not have it memorized.

But what Wizard of 9th level or above doesnt keep a Teleport prepared at all times?

A wizard doesn't automatically get teleport, so don't treat it like a given.

And the point of what KarinsDad was trying to make didn't have anything to do with Teleport, but a spell that both the Sorcerer & Wizard both know.

The spell could be ButterTheBread (just to remove 3.x spell connotations on usefullness).

If both the Wizard and Sorcerer have ButterTheBread known as a spell and the Wizard doesn't have it memorized, she's out of luck. Great that she has the spell, but it doesn't help the group or the Wizard in the least.

Thats an advantage to the Sorcerers spellcasting method. What spells they do have, they have full 100% access to. If they don't have the spell and nothing else that would be applicable, thats because the Wizard is more versatile.

Not that there is any guarantee that a Wizard will know tons of spells for each level just because it's possible though. It's a potential advantage.

 

[Pickaxe]

But exactly what would be a poor spell choice?

How about preparing a fireball and wishing you had one more fly spell to get the whole party off that crumbling precipice?

An attack spell is pretty much an attack spell, and a defensive spell is pretty much a defensive spell (or either a defense against physical or magical threats).

And even if a Wizard chooses one or two spells that dont end up being helpful, the chances of his dying over it are very slim.

As Doctor Awkward said, most players who arent totally new to the game know enough to choose a decent selection of spells.

That sounds almost like an argument *for* the sorcerer. If the roles of spells can be reduced to a select number of categories (attack, defense, attack a particular save, battlefield control, etc.), then that makes it that much easier for the sorcerer to cover the party's needs with his limited selection, and the wizard's versatility starts to look like redundancy and trivia, rather than an advantage. Spell selection is critical for both classes, but I think you underestimate how much ground a sorcerer can cover with his limited selection.

And, exactly the same things can be said of a Sorcerers choice of spells known. Except, they cant really be changed at all.

Well, actually, they can, and an important part of a sorcerer build is swapping out redundant lower level spells to maximize versatility.

Keep in mind that I was once very much of the mind that sorcerer's are weak, but I've seen them in action at low levels and mid levels and can vouch for their efficacy, and others have demonstrated to me that a high-level sorcerer can cover all the important bases that a wizard can. And a sorcerer will spend all day casting spells, whereas a wizard is more likely to have to pull out his crossbow multiple times in his career.

--Axe

 

[KarinsDad]

Yea I pretty much disagree entirely with all of this.


The only thing that might make Sorcerers superior in combat would be their larger number of spell slots, but in a given combat thats pretty much meaningless since they both get the same number of actions in a round.

If Mirror Image is a great spell in situations where the arcane caster gets surrounded by multiple meleeing opponents, then the Sorcerer takes it and either uses it as needed or not.

The Wizard either takes it one or more times (and has the chance that he never needs it that day) or does not take it (and has the chance that he needed it).

Even if the Wizard takes it once, just to be on the safe side, he will have days where he wastes that slot completely and other days where he needed it more than once.


With regard to "same number of rounds", that's not true either. It is illusory and specious.

If the Wizard gets Silenced, even if he has Silent Spell, he is pretty much SOL.

If the Sorcerer with Silent Spell gets Silenced, he is only marginally inconvenienced.


If the Wizard only memorized Empowered Fireball once that day and he suddenly needs another large attack spell and does not have it, he will spend MULTIPLE rounds casting, just to take out a given group of opponents.

The Sorcerer who can Empower Spell anytime he wants will take fewer rounds doing that.

The Sorcerer can dish out more damage in the same amount of time since sooner or later, the Wizard will run out of heavy duty offensive spells.


Granted, if you do not design your Sorcerer well, then yes, he will have fewer advantages in this regard.

But, I was talking about a well designed Sorcerer versus a well designed Wizard.

I think you greatly overvalue both spontaneous casting, and having slightly more spell slots per day.

I think you greatly undervalue them and you definitely undervalue spontaneous metamagic casting.


I ran a Sorcerer for over 6 months who never even went unconscious because I always had options. I cannot say the same for any Wizards I have ever seen played.

 

[Denaes]

The only thing that might make Sorcerers superior in combat would be their larger number of spell slots, but in a given combat thats pretty much meaningless since they both get the same number of actions in a round.

Not true. If thats the only benefit you think Sorcerers have, then thats why you undervalue their casting.

They can choose to cast any of their spells with any metamagic feats attached at a whim, while the Wizard may be in a situation where she can't use the spells they have prepared or they run out of the one they need.

There are other advantages other than the number of spell slots. As I and others have said before, this doesn't make the Wizard a bad caster or the Sorcerer superior, it makes the Sorcerer more Flexible and the Wizard more Versitile overall. Different strengths.

 

[Denaes]

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, all at once.

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, given enough time.

The Wizard has the potential to cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently and almost certainly not all at once.

Merlion, you seem to be treating Wizards like they're Clerics. Wizards don't automatically get full spell lists by level. They get like a spell or two. Thats it. Everything past that it's up to the situation of the campaign for the Wizard to learn extra spells.

It's mechanically possible, but situations arise and you don't always have 8+ spells in your book for every level - if only due to cost or availability, let alone the Wizards desire.

And no, the wizard can not handle everything thrown at them all at once. At once a Wizard can handle one thing at a time. If you misspoke and meant something like one after another, your Wizard would have to have used Divination to find out what spells to handily have on tap - or be the luckiest guesser that existed.

Maybe if your GM looks at what spells you have prepared and tailors encounters to your prepared spells... But in that case, the Sorcerer would be at no disadvantage for Versatility of spells, becasuse the GM is playing to their known lists.

 

[Thanee]

But all of that is too subjective and circumstantial to have anything like a rational discussion about or to draw meaningful conclusions from.

Of course, but the problem is, that without them you cannot really draw a meaningful conclusion either, because those factors are among the most influential ones.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Even with the two balanced out and casting being - on average, not in a specifically made situation - equal, the Wizard has more feats which puts them over the top for the class.

Not quite.

If there were no prestige classes in the game, then I might agree with this.

However, the Wizard has a hard choice to make when it comes to prestige classes. Give up his additional bonus feats in order to gain the advantages of the PrC or don't do it.

The Sorcerer has a pretty easy choice. Find a PrC you like that has full spell progression and gain a bunch of abilities. This basically takes away a substantial portion of the feat advantages of Wizards (with the exception of Scribe Scroll and the 5th level bonus feat).

Granted, Sorcerers no longer gain Familiar bonuses if they do that, but Familiars are mostly a waste anyway (at least IME).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What makes them more flexible at spell casting is the definition of the word flexible (Responsive to change; adaptable) and the rules for how a Sorcerer cast spells. A Sorcerers mechanics for casting spells is more responsive to change & adaptable than the Wizards.

So, you plan not to answer the question, then? I asked why you say they're flexible. You said "they're flexible." That doesn't give any reasons supporting your assertion. Can you please back this up with something material? You say they're flexible because they're adaptable. Why are they more adaptable?

Perhaps one could argue that a sorcerer is more flexible because he has the option of the "backup spell", if his first few spells don't work. I wouldn't call that flexibility. I'd call it tenacity. Flexible implies that the character is better able to cope with different situations rather that just being able to steamroller over things by virtue of sheer power. Sorcerers have plenty of raw power. They can cast all day, practically.

Wizards don't have that same staying power. But wizards do have a wider spell selection, ability to make scrolls of any of those spells, and the ability to leave a slot open for a spell if they're not sure what they're going to need. That's flexibility, and they get it at the expense of staying power. Of course wizards need to know beforehand which spells to prepare. But at least they have the option of choosing. Again, the sorcerer has no ability to alter his spells regardless of whether he knows what is coming or not. If he doesn't have the right spell, he's out of luck. Too bad, maybe next encounter the monsters will have a weakness he can exploit.

The wizard might not have the right spell at the moment, but he probably has it on a scroll (my wizards always have their entire spellbook on scrolls, at least one scroll per spell. It's not that expensive, and the added flexibility is totally worth it). And if he doesn't, well, too bad as well. But he's no worse off than the sorcerer in that case. In fact, he's probably better off as long as he has slots open, because the challenge he's trying to overcome might not be a combat challenge, and 15 minutes later he can have the perfect spell prepared.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

1. It was stated that it would be unfair to target the Wizards spell book for fear of making him useless with out it. Question does any one know what Divine Focus means in regards to Clerical spells? (Yes boys and Girls, it means lose your Holy symbol and you cant cast those spells. Not even the ones in memory. Which is not true of Wizards)

So you're out 1 gp worth of wood. Big deal. If someone in the party has craft (woodworking) you'll have another in a few hours. It's not like a holy symbol is expensive or hard to make. Not like reconstructing several thousand gp worth of spells. Besides, clerics are pretty good even without spells, what with the armour and medium BAB and d8 hit dice, and everything. The problem with losing a spellbook is it strips you of your major (only?) class feature. A wizard without a spellbook is a commoner with some knowledge skills. A cleric without his holy symbol is at least a warrior, and not all his spells require divine focus anyway.

2. It was pointed out that perhaps the Wizard might have Fireball as well as Lightning Bolt in his spell list at 6th level, where the Sorcerer might only have Lightning Bolt. Well As I see it here. If the Wizard has Fireball he most likely at 6th level has no more than one in memory. (Sucks to be him if the trolls dont die from his mighty 6D6 Fireball)

Yeah, but he's also hasted the party so they cut down the trolls pretty fast and he finishes them off with the fireball instead of just fireballing over and over again. Maybe he's even got a scroll of flame arrow that he scribed because he knew he wouldn't want to prepare it. Lots of flexibility. Granted, the sorcerer will have no difficulty blasting the trolls to smithereens. I'm not trying to argue that. I'm just saying, what wizards lack in explody they make up for in options.

3. At lower levels how many times has the Wizard held off casting one of his precious few spells to save them for when they are really needed? Conversly the Sorcerer takes the shot because he knows he has more.

This is indeed a sorcerer's advantage. He's a bit of a one-trick pony, but he can keep that trick up all fight. A wizard can cast himself dry very quickly, although after about 10th level, it's unlikely he will. Still, if what you need is just one. more. fireball...

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thats why I say, if you want both leave the casting and all the same, but give the Sorcerer some additional class abilities to make up for his slightly inferior magical ability. Do the bloodlines...let Sorcerers get 3 or 4 low to med powered class features related to a theme. Wizards will still be better mages (which I dont really have a problem with) but Sorcerers will actually have compensation for their inferiority in that area, and it will actually make them into truly seperate classes, instead of one being a variant of the other.

My complicated yet simple sorcerer modification:

Sorcerers get a bonus feat at first level. This must be chosen from the bloodline feats from Dragon magazine. FYI, these provide one extra spell known per level, based on a theme. It also denies them access to a certain type of spells. Eg. the Fire bloodline excludes [Cold] spells. Every 5th level, the sorcerer gains a bonus feat. This may be spent on further developing the bloodline (from the same source: more feats that grant minor thematic abilities), or on taking metamagic feats (or, if I'm bothering to include them, those damnable Draconic feats from Complete Arcane). Metamagic being one of the sorcerer's advantages, it seems appropriate. I also provide the sorcerer with a change to the spellcasting progression: at the point on the spells per day chart where a wizard would gain a new spell level (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. gains 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. respectively), instead of the chart reading "--", it reads "0", like a bard's spells per day chart does. If the sorcerer has a bonus spell of that level, and he knows a spell of that level, he can use the bonus spell slot to cast the spell. Since he gains a bloodline spell at each level, he has a single spell that he can cast once (or maybe more often, depending on his Cha) per day.

It forces the sorcerer to stick to a theme and develop it with abilities that have some flavour, and gives them a little bit of a fix to tide them over until they hit even numbered levels. It also evens the "qualifying for a prestige class by casting spells of level X" advantage wizards have for no good reason. I figure a little flavour is better than none, even if your flavour is "I'm a fire mage! Whoosh!"