sorcerers

[Merlion]

And, just because the Wizard can EVENTUALLY teleport (i.e. in 15 minutes or the next day) does not mean that he is capable of handling the current situation. If you need Teleport and you need it NOW, it matters not a whit that the Wizard has it in his spellbook if he does not have it memorized.

But what Wizard of 9th level or above doesnt keep a Teleport prepared at all times? Now yea its just one...and the 10th level Sorcerer who has Teleport as his one and only 5th level spell can cast it 4 times...if he has chosen that as his one and only 5th level spell that he will have until he gains a level.


This is the thing: Even using your model of "flexibility" versus "versatility", flexibility isnt that helpful if you dont have versatility.

And the Wizard has versatility. The Sorcerer does not. And although in theory the Sorcerer has greater flexibility, the wizard isnt as inflexible as you seem to think. A Wizard above low level is going to have enough spell slots in a given day to have a pretty flexible and versatile range of spells at his disposal, and he has the benefit of being able to change it the next day if circumstances change.

The Sorcerer may have some of that first benefit, but has absolutely none whatsoever of the second.


That 9th level Wizard might even use both his 5th level slots for Teleports, because he still has all of his other slots for other things.

And the same can be said, somewhat of the Sorcerers spells known. But, the Wizards Spells per day and the Sorcerers spells known are usualy going to be about equal (or the Wizard may have more spells per day of a given level than the Sorcerer has spells known). And yes, the Sorcerer can choose to use his slots on them however he chooses.

But they cannot change, except to a tiny tiny degree every several levels. To me that is a massive lack of both versatility AND flexibility. Yes, spontaneous casting is very flexible. But the Sorcerer gives up so much in exchange, that its not really worth it especially since the system is set up for preperation casting.

You say I undervalue spontaneous casting. I say you overestimated the "inflexibility" of preperation based casting, and undervalue being able to do a wider variety of different things.

 

[Merlion]

I think a well designed Sorcerer is superior in combat to a Wizard.

I think a well designed Wizard is superior in social settings and in problem solving (i.e. getting past guards undetected or finding a way out of a trap) than a Sorcerer.

Granted, a Sorcerer could be superior in social settings if that is what he focused on (i.e. Alter Self, Charm Person, etc.). But, if he does that, then he would be an inferior combatant. It is all dependent on what he focuses on. Ditto for problem solving.

I also think that a well designed Specialized Wizard is almost on par in combat to a Sorcerer, just due to his extra spells.


In fact, I would suspect that the majority of players who play Wizards actually take Specialized Wizards, just because the extra power of extra spells is preferable to the extra versatility of being able to cast out of all schools of magic. It is better to have spells left over and be alive than it is to be versatile and be dead.

Maybe we should take a poll on that.

Yea I pretty much disagree entirely with all of this.


The only thing that might make Sorcerers superior in combat would be their larger number of spell slots, but in a given combat thats pretty much meaningless since they both get the same number of actions in a round.

Certainlly, a Sorcerer would be better at dealing with more encounters in a single day. But this is only an issue in a campaign with an above average number of encounters per day (over what the system assumes). And in this case, the Sorcerer will probably be the only person suited to actually functioning under those circumstances.


This part in particular interests me:

But, if he does that, then he would be an inferior combatant. It is all dependent on what he focuses on. Ditto for problem solving.

Thats the thing see. A Sorcerer tends to need to focus on one thing, with a toe dipped into another perhaps.

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, all at once.


I think you greatly overvalue both spontaneous casting, and having slightly more spell slots per day.

 

[Felix]

he has the benefit of being able to change it the next day

If he lives past his poor spell choice, that is.

 

[Felix]

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, all at once.

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, given enough time.

 

[Merlion]

If he lives past his poor spell choice, that is.

But exactly what would be a poor spell choice? An attack spell is pretty much an attack spell, and a defensive spell is pretty much a defensive spell (or either a defense against physical or magical threats).

And even if a Wizard chooses one or two spells that dont end up being helpful, the chances of his dying over it are very slim.

As Doctor Awkward said, most players who arent totally new to the game know enough to choose a decent selection of spells.

And, exactly the same things can be said of a Sorcerers choice of spells known. Except, they cant really be changed at all.


You seem to assume that every wizard player is going to choose the worst possible spells for every situation.

 

[Merlion]

The Wizard...especially a mid level wizard or beyond, can cover a wide variety of possibilities, competently, given enough time.

Given normal playing circumstances, yea. Unless he is prevented from preparing spells at the begining of the day at all. It doesnt really require extra time, what I'm talking about.


Your missing my point, as usual. a Wizard, especially beyond low level, has enough known spells, and enough daily spell slots, to prepare a menu of spells broad enough to get him through most situations. A mix of attack, and defense, and utilty.

And the same is somewhat true of a Sorcerers spells known, but to a more limited degree. And without the Wizards added ability, due to knowing more spells, to be extremely well prepared in the event of additional foreknowledge of whats going on.


But that foreknowledge isnt required for the Wizard to be effective. Its an added bonus, which the Sorcerer never gets.

 

[Felix]

You seem to assume that every wizard player is going to choose the worst possible spells for every situation.

I only admit the possibility. Because the wizard changes the spells he has available (which you tout as the wizard's greatest strength), it is possible for him to be caught with the wrong spells on hand.

The sorcerer, because he must make do with the spells he has, will have a few aside that will see to his defense. And if it hits the fan, he will be able to cast them as many times as survival necessitates. The wizard will also likely have a few defensive spells. He must make do with what he has prepared, however.

It is in these situations when the sorcerer is better equipped to live.

If that never happens...

If the wizard is never in combat more than twice a day...

If the wizard's spellbook is sacrosanct...

If the wizard always knows what is coming at him...

...Then the sorcerer will be as comparatively weak as you portray him.

 

[vince33]

the stuff that a sorcerer needs is
d6 hitdie
and some special abillitys cause cmon hes has nottin on his list beside his familiar thing which the wizard has too. just because he can cast spontenuosly doesnt mean he should have nothing else on his list
and if it is all about casting spells were are all his spells?
why is proficent with simple weapons if he is all about casting
go ahead go melee good luck he has d4 hit die anyway yes maybe itll help if i use bears endurance and bulls strength but with his luck he prolly doesnt have the spells
if he has the scrolls and uses them hel have to get new ones

 

[KarinsDad]

But exactly what would be a poor spell choice? An attack spell is pretty much an attack spell, and a defensive spell is pretty much a defensive spell (or either a defense against physical or magical threats).

How about the 10th level Wizard who chooses an Empowered Fireball as one of his 5th level spells?

He doesn't use it because the encounters for the day are either a few higher level opponents where he cannot get an area effect attack in, so he saves it, or multiple lower level opponents where Empowering the Fireball is overkill.

He has effectively wasted that slot for the day because a situation where he needs that spell does not come up.


It is amazing how you conveniently forget how many spells Wizards prepare in the game and never use.


Having unused spells where the situation never comes up IS a weakness of Wizards. To think it is a strength is irrational.

 

[Denaes]

Ok, let me ask this....are you actually trying to say the Sorcerer is generally going to be *superior* to the Wizard?

Cause thats how it sounds, and before we can even begin to relate...or rather know if we have any chance of relating, we need to get that out of the way.

No, what everyone has been saying is that magic is two things:

1. How you cast. (flexibility)

2. What you know. (Versatility)

The Sorcerer casts better due to their flexibility.

The Wizard has a larger variety of spells.

Together the two pretty much cancel each other out mechanically, though some players would prefer Versatile characters who overall can have more options and others prefer characters who are more flexible in applying fewer options.

Even with the two balanced out and casting being - on average, not in a specifically made situation - equal, the Wizard has more feats which puts them over the top for the class.

What it comes down to is that the Sorcerer will, in general, be a better spell caster for what they want to specialize in and not quite (or at all if they have nothing to cover a specific type of magic) as good as the Wizard can potentially be in other areas of magic.