sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

So, you plan not to answer the question, then? I asked why you say they're flexible. You said "they're flexible." That doesn't give any reasons supporting your assertion. Can you please back this up with something material? You say they're flexible because they're adaptable. Why are they more adaptable?

Because of metamagic.

If you design your Sorcerer well, he not only has the 3rd level spell slot Fireball, but he also has the 5th level spell slot Empowered Fireball and the 3rd level spell slot Energy Substitution Coldball and the 5th level spell slot Energy Substitution Empowered Coldball.

Throw some Metamagic Rods into the mix and a Sorcerer can become truly devastating whereas the Wizard just becomes powerful.


Protection From Energy. The Wizard might have one or two. The Sorcerer can stop multiple different energy types in a single combat, plus he can stop energy damage on multiple allies.


The real aspect of adaptability, though, is the fact that the Sorcerer is almost always prepared for any situation he can handle whereas the Wizard may or may not be. The Wizard might, given time, be able to handle more different types of situations, but he cannot repeatedly handle the same subset of situations over and over again that the Sorcerer can unless he has some foreknowledge that the given situation will occur over and over again.

 

[Jack Simth]

A lot depends on specific builds and campaigns - a Sorceror-10 with both Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjouration, otherwise focusing mostly on onterh-buff spells, is very useful in most any situation - Rogue needs flanking? Standard action to drop a Shadow-eumlated Summon Monster III clone opposite the baddie. The entire party needs to get somewhere fast? No prob - Phantom Steed is Conjouration(Creation), and a Sor-10 has 5 4th level spell slots for Shadow Conjouration before Charisma Bonuses - just don't examine the thing too closely, and everyone's fine (granted, the Wizard can prep a Teleport and get there much faster ... but less reliably, depending on circumstances). Facing something immune to Fire? Dup a Lightning Bolt, or an Ice Storm. High SR target? Well, can't do much directly (neither can the Wizard) - Buff (ditto for a high-will save target...). Need shelter from the storm? While a Secure Shelter might be out of reach (until 14th, where Greater Shadow Conjouration can be picked up) How does a Tiny Hut sound? Or maybe he took Rope trick as one of his second level spells; need more than 10 hours? Extend for 20, on the spot. Okay, so he doesn't have Spider Climb to get the Rogue over the wall to steal back the Widget of Doom... but he probably has Fly (3rd level buff spell), which can be used to much the same effect, or just Rope Trick again to give the Rouge something easy to climb.

Yeah, with 15 minutes of prep, the Wizard almost certainly has exactly the right spell for the job... and if the Wizard keeps a copy of every spell in scroll form in a Handy Haversack, then the Wizard always has the right spell for the job immediately available... but that can get pricy, fast, in terms of down time, gp, and XP. If those are usually or always readily available, the Wizard wins. A well-designed Sorceror, however, can usually keep up, often without the expenditure of such less-renewable recources. If one or more of those recources the Wizard needs to be fully effective are in short supply, the Sorceror wins.

It depends - on the campaign, on the specific build, and on the creativity of the player - a well-designed wizard is master of the expected and decent with the unexpected; a well-designed sorceror is master of the unexpected and decent with the expected. The power curves are different - Wizard gets more spells earlier + bonus feats, Sorceror can use spells more, and doesn't need to plan as much session to session for full effectiveness.

This is, of course, before Prestige Classes come into the picture - a Sorceror usually loses nothing (other than familiar advancement) by taking a PrC - while a Wizard usually loses bonus feats (in addition to familiar advancement).

Personally? If you are good at desinging both, take whichever strikes your fancy better. Both can be pretty good.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I only admit the possibility. Because the wizard changes the spells he has available (which you tout as the wizard's greatest strength), it is possible for him to be caught with the wrong spells on hand.

The sorcerer, because he must make do with the spells he has, will have a few aside that will see to his defense. And if it hits the fan, he will be able to cast them as many times as survival necessitates. The wizard will also likely have a few defensive spells. He must make do with what he has prepared, however.

It is in these situations when the sorcerer is better equipped to live.

If that never happens...

If the wizard is never in combat more than twice a day...

If the wizard's spellbook is sacrosanct...

If the wizard always knows what is coming at him...

...Then the sorcerer will be as comparatively weak as you portray him.

Actually, I can't really see the sorcerer's staying power as a huge advantage in most situations. Essentially, it's only good if you're trapped in an encounter area and need to fight your way out. If you have the option of stopping, resting, and recouping your spells, it ceases to be an advantage, much in the way that the warlock's at-will powers have an effective cap of uses per day: the rest of the party needs to stop and rest even if you don't have to. And diminishing hit points will eventually force a break.

The sorcerer does certainly shine, however, in situations that require voluminous expenditure of party resources. It's what they're built for.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Because of metamagic.

Yeah, I was aware of the metamagic thing. I actually think sorcerers are pretty good. I think they can use a little extra...but they're pretty good. Mostly because of metamagic. If it weren't for the spontaneous metamagic, they'd be pretty dismal. But this is a separate issue from what I've been addressing, and the quoted post above was me trying to goad that particular poster into contributing something rather than just repeating unsubstantiated assertions.

re: your other post above:
I have never played a wizard character below about level 7 who didn't cast all his spells each day. I have no idea what you're talking about with the wizards who always have unused spells left over. Seriously, who does that? You empower the scorching ray, not the fireball, because you might not use an empowered fireball (and then you have a 5th level slot left over to boot). Your logic above dictates the sensible mode of action taken by wizards with metamagic feats. You carefully choose which spells to metamagic so that they'll be maximally useful.

By the time my wizards have spells left at the end of the day, it's because they have so many spells they just didn't get to use them all, not because they weren't the right spells. The "not the right spells" are all on scrolls so I don't have to waste valuable slots preparing them, which would probably leave me with spells left over at the end of the day.

 

[Thanee]

Essentially, it's only good if you're trapped in an encounter area and need to fight your way out.

Or if there are time limits present.

But that's basically it, the wizard is by far the most powerful class, if there is always enough time to stop and prepare, divine and prepare, teleport out and prepare, etc.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Wizards are also more susceptible for dispels in the long run.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Denaes]

Originally Posted by Denaes
What makes them more flexible at spell casting is the definition of the word flexible (Responsive to change; adaptable) and the rules for how a Sorcerer cast spells. A Sorcerers mechanics for casting spells is more responsive to change & adaptable than the Wizards.

So, you plan not to answer the question, then? I asked why you say they're flexible. You said "they're flexible." That doesn't give any reasons supporting your assertion. Can you please back this up with something material? You say they're flexible because they're adaptable. Why are they more adaptable?

I answered it in that text you quoted.

The mechanics are more responsive to change because they're not as set in stone as the Wizards. The wizard chooses magic in advance, so by definition of the word, he's not very responsive to change. The Sorcerer can choose his spells & apply any known metamagic whenever they feel like it, specifically for the situation.

The mechanics for Sorcerers casting spells is, as printed in the book, more flexible than the mechanics for the Wizards mechanics for memorizing and then casting spells.

The wizard might not have the right spell at the moment, but he probably has it on a scroll (my wizards always have their entire spellbook on scrolls, at least one scroll per spell. It's not that expensive, and the added flexibility is totally worth it). And if he doesn't, well, too bad as well. But he's no worse off than the sorcerer in that case. In fact, he's probably better off as long as he has slots open, because the challenge he's trying to overcome might not be a combat challenge, and 15 minutes later he can have the perfect spell prepared.

Thats great, but that's not an aspect of the Wizard class. We're comparing Socereres to Wizards, not who has what magic items.

I think any arcane caster should have hundreds of scrolls - be it a Sorcerer or a Wizard. But that doesn't have anything to do with the spell casting mechanics for the two classes.

 

[Denaes]

My complicated yet simple sorcerer modification:

Sorcerers get a bonus feat at first level. This must be chosen from the bloodline feats from Dragon magazine. FYI, these provide one extra spell known per level, based on a theme. It also denies them access to a certain type of spells. Eg. the Fire bloodline excludes [Cold] spells. Every 5th level, the sorcerer gains a bonus feat. This may be spent on further developing the bloodline (from the same source: more feats that grant minor thematic abilities), or on taking metamagic feats (or, if I'm bothering to include them, those damnable Draconic feats from Complete Arcane). Metamagic being one of the sorcerer's advantages, it seems appropriate. I also provide the sorcerer with a change to the spellcasting progression: at the point on the spells per day chart where a wizard would gain a new spell level (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. gains 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. respectively), instead of the chart reading "--", it reads "0", like a bard's spells per day chart does. If the sorcerer has a bonus spell of that level, and he knows a spell of that level, he can use the bonus spell slot to cast the spell. Since he gains a bloodline spell at each level, he has a single spell that he can cast once (or maybe more often, depending on his Cha) per day.

It forces the sorcerer to stick to a theme and develop it with abilities that have some flavour, and gives them a little bit of a fix to tide them over until they hit even numbered levels. It also evens the "qualifying for a prestige class by casting spells of level X" advantage wizards have for no good reason. I figure a little flavour is better than none, even if your flavour is "I'm a fire mage! Whoosh!"

What issue of Dragon are these in?

 

[KarinsDad]

re: your other post above:
I have never played a wizard character below about level 7 who didn't cast all his spells each day. I have no idea what you're talking about with the wizards who always have unused spells left over. Seriously, who does that? You empower the scorching ray, not the fireball, because you might not use an empowered fireball (and then you have a 5th level slot left over to boot). Your logic above dictates the sensible mode of action taken by wizards with metamagic feats. You carefully choose which spells to metamagic so that they'll be maximally useful.

Agreed.

But, the point I was making that you missed is that metamagic is relatively rare for most Wizards (not taking metamagic, but preparing many metamagic spells). The reason is that the Wizard has to choose between preparing a good 4th level spell (e.g. Dimension Door) and preparing a good metamagic 4th level spell (e.g. Empowered Scorching Ray) ahead of time. So if he prepares Empowered Scorching Ray because he is expecting to run into the BBEG that day and is saving it for that, and he does NOT run into the BBEG, then that 4th level spell slot was wasted for the day (since there is a good chance that he will not use it for a lesser opponent at all). It is especially wasted if he has to pull out his Dimension Door scroll and use it instead. The 4th level spell slot AND the scroll were both effectively wasted (wasted here meaning used up where a better alternative was possible). This does not happen with the Sorcerer.

By the time my wizards have spells left at the end of the day, it's because they have so many spells they just didn't get to use them all, not because they weren't the right spells. The "not the right spells" are all on scrolls so I don't have to waste valuable slots preparing them, which would probably leave me with spells left over at the end of the day.

The "not the right spells" argument applies to Sorcerers as well.

They just purchase their scrolls as opposed to scribing them. The GP cost is doubled, but the XP cost is zero.

For all of the GP that Wizard spend on spellbooks, higher level Sorcerers can buy hundreds of scrolls and the Heward's Handy Haversack to store them in.

 

[Denaes]

Actually, I can't really see the sorcerer's staying power as a huge advantage in most situations. Essentially, it's only good if you're trapped in an encounter area and need to fight your way out. If you have the option of stopping, resting, and recouping your spells, it ceases to be an advantage, much in the way that the warlock's at-will powers have an effective cap of uses per day: the rest of the party needs to stop and rest even if you don't have to. And diminishing hit points will eventually force a break.

The sorcerer does certainly shine, however, in situations that require voluminous expenditure of party resources. It's what they're built for.

The Sorcerer shone pretty well in our group when we were trying to find some slave handlers. My Sorcerer was using magic to change his facial appearance to look like a potential slave buyer we had locked up at our place.

I had to cast it a few times that night as we went to different places and cast a few charm spells.

The Wizard of the party had Charm, but not the spell to alter your face and didn't have charm memorized and we were on a timeline with people being sold to creatures who ate humans, so we couldn't just keep stopping for a day and waiting.

Situations came up multiple times like that were you need to do something now, and the Wizard wasn't ready. If I hadn't had the spells ready we would have had to do something stupid like fight our way through things.

It's Anecdotal and some groups may never have time sensitive events (it's a constant when I GM or play in games), but I think it at least goes a step further to break the stereotype that Sorcerers are only good in combat and only extended combats show their strengths.

In our group, the Wizard was Mr Warspells and I was a bit more "sly". I think I did more damage in combat with illusionary magic than the Wizard did with his damage spells. Well, probobly not, but the illusionary magic was more helpful in and out of combat than the combat spells were.