sorcerers

[Jdvn1]

[ Quo.te=Felix that wonderful guy] Blah blah blah [/ quote]

becomes:

Is that a person here?!

 

[KarinsDad]

Not really. The Sorcerers one advantage is the ability to cast spells without preperation. That advantage is more or less negated by their extremely limited spells known combined with their slower spell level aqquisition.

So their casting is at best even...and in most situations the Wizard will be ever so slightly better off. And then on top of that, Wizards get bonus feats.

One advantage?

You haven't actually ever played a capable Sorcerer, have you?


1) Spontaneous Metamagic is HUGE. This is not worth even going into, but Wizards suck at metamagic whereas Sorcerers rock.


2) Also, sorcerers have more spells per day which they can cast. At lower level, this allows them to survive easier.

Compare a 15 Cha 1st level Sorcerer with a 15 Int 1st level Wizard and take them up the levels (and add +1 to their prime stat every 4 levels so that they can have 19 by level 16):

Sorcerer / Wizard

1 +2 1st /
2 +2 1st /
3 +2 1st / +2 2nd
4 +3 1st +1 2nd /
5 +3 1st +1 2nd / +1 3rd
6 +3 1st +2 2nd +1 3rd /
7 +2 1st +3 2nd +2 3rd / +1 4th
8 +2 1st +3 2nd +2 3rd +1 4th /

And the trend continues. Sure, the Wizard has a single higher level spell on the odd levels (starting at 5th level), but the Sorcerer trounces the Wizard not only on the highest level spell on the even levels, but on most levels of spells on all levels. The Wizard gets one more third level spell at 5th level, but the Sorcerer gets one more third level spell at 6th level. The Wizard gets one more fourth level spell at 7th level, but the Sorcerer gets one more fourth level spell at 8th level, etc.

Third level is about the only level where a Wizard has a significant advantage here.

Math is math. Sorcerers not only get more spells, but they get just as many highest level spells as (non-specialized) Wizards overall.


3) I guess the DM in your games also waits the hour for the Wizard to study his spells in the morning EVERY SINGLE TIME. No 3 AM attacks in your game? The Sorcerer is still fairly capable in those situations most of the time. The Wizard is a LOT less capable in those situations, especially if the previous day was a heavy spell expenditure day.


4) If a "needed spell" is wasted in the game (counterspelled, lost due to a missed concentration roll, etc.), the Wizard rarely still has the spell to cast (unless he memorized it twice which would be unusual for most of his spells). The Sorcerer is often still able to cast the spell.


Pros and Cons.

That's why it is called balance.

 

[Merlion]

instead of:

[QUOTE]Quoted text here [/QUOTE]


use =PostersName like so:

[QUOTE=Denaes]Something Denaes has said [/QUOTE]



Or just make something up, it doesn't have to be a posters name:

[QUOTE=Denaes Had a Great Idea]Something great Denaes has said [/QUOTE]

Ahh, so its all in the ='s. Thats the part I didnt know.

 

[Merlion]

Spontaneous Metamagic is HUGE. This is not worth even going into, but Wizards suck at metamagic whereas Sorcerers rock.

well actually I think standard D&D metamagic just sucks period, because you have to pay for it so many times. But as with everything else with Spontaneous Casting, it comes at a pretty hefty price. It takes a lot longer to cast. And Sorcerers cant use Quicken at all, one of the only metamagic feats that is worth while.

Also, sorcerers have more spells per day which they can cast. At lower level, this allows them to survive easier.

I've already covered this in this thread. As far as I am concerned sorcerers get more spells per day than actually does them any good. They get the same number of actions per round as everyone else. Now yea they could maybe handle more encounters in a day than the average...but no one else in the party could.

Math is math. Sorcerers not only get more spells, but they get just as many highest level spells as (non-specialized) Wizards overall

Slots yes. Spells, no. A Wizard can prepare as many or more spells of a given level as a Sorcerers known spells of that level, generally. Go back to one of my earliest posts.

I guess the DM in your games also waits the hour for the Wizard to study his spells in the morning EVERY SINGLE TIME. No 3 AM attacks in your game? The Sorcerer is still fairly capable in those situations most of the time. The Wizard is a LOT less capable in those situations, especially if the previous day was a heavy spell expenditure day.

If a "needed spell" is wasted in the game (counterspelled, lost due to a missed concentration roll, etc.), the Wizard rarely still has the spell to cast (unless he memorized it twice which would be unusual for most of his spells). The Sorcerer is often still able to cast the spell.

These are very situational and/or campaign specific or play style specific "advantages". Some DMs may attack the party when their already mostly exhausted, others may not.

Also most of the types of "needed" spells that you seem to be refering to probably arent going to be combat spells. Their going to be out of combat utility spells like Knock, Levitate, various Divinations etc. That are probably only going to need a single casting.

 

[Felix]

Is that a person here?!

Eight spells to three is more than double.

Right, but at any given time, the wizard will have three, and so will the sorcerer. And the sorcerer can cast them twice as many times. It's a question of preparation, as it has been this entire thread.

And the Wizard at least has the option for diversity, which is hugely beneficial.

It is indeed. It is his greatest strength. Offset, in my opinion, by the drive to use that diversity. Frankly, I think any wizard with 3 9th level slots should have: Time Stop, Foresight, and an open slot. The sorcerer is also able to have those two spells, but he can cast them more times, and have a third one ready. So the question is "how important is it that you get the right 9th level spell instead of being able to cast those two necessary spells multiple times".

And I think they come out even in the end.

Typically, you know what most of your spells are going to be ahead of time

If that situation is typical, then yes, the wizard will be more powerful. However, its typicality is the provence of the DM, and subject to change.

But the Sorc can't spend it on spell diversity to the extent a Wizard can. I think that's what it comes down to.

He can't spend it on long-lasting spell diversity, but rather spends it on immediate spell diversity. It's not as useful in the long run, but it does have virtue in being able to be used whenever the sorc needs it, eh?

Same goes for diversity of spells. In my experience, spell diversity is more useful more often than multiplicity of spells at higher levels.

And that's the wizard's strength.

Sometimes you need a particular spell, "but hey, take your time" ... call a wizard.

Other times you need "Kill it, kill it, killitKILLITKILLIT!!!" ... hire a sorcerer.

Go ahead. Dim Door or Teleport your party over. Done? Cool, you're out of 4th or 5th level spells for the rest of the day. Meanwhile, the Wizard spent 4 of those 7 rounds casting 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells. And I can have a city go through the passage now, instead of just a party.

Oh, and we can exit too.

But maybe I'm just used to big parties.

You miss the point. If you come up on a prismatic wall, and need to bypass it now, the sorcerer will be better at it. If you need to take the thing down, which takes more time, the wizard will be better.

Have time ---> Wizard
Do it now ---> Sorcerer

Different strengths, man. Who cares if you're out of 4th or 5th level spells when it's better to be alive? If there's no threat to the party, then take the time, and bring the wall down. Different situations call for different measures. Same as the strengths of any classes, eh?

Sorcerers are a bit better at earlier levels and Wizards are a bit better at higher levels.

I can dig that. I think, however, that it is only a "bit". Overall, I think it's a wash. It really and truly depends upon the situations the characters find themselves in.

 

[KarinsDad]

well actually I think standard D&D metamagic just sucks period, because you have to pay for it so many times. But as with everything else with Spontaneous Casting, it comes at a pretty hefty price. It takes a lot longer to cast. And Sorcerers cant use Quicken at all, one of the only metamagic feats that is worth while.

A full round action is NOT a lot of time, especially when you consider the fact that most spell casters are able to cast defensively in the worst of situations and cast at will in most situations.

As for other metamagic, Empower Spell is huge.

Level * 3.5 * 1.5 = 5.25 hit points of damage per level (for a spell that does D6 per level damage like Fireball or Lightning Bolt).

If your opponents miss two saving throws, that means that two offensive spells can take them out. Two spells. Two rounds.

If one saving throw is missed and one made, that still takes out some opponents in two rounds and others in three rounds.


And against an enemy Wizard or Sorcerer, a single missed saving throw could take out your opponent in a single round.

One round to take out an enemy arcane spellcaster (and possibly others around him if it is an area effect spell).

Even if the enemy arcane spellcaster makes the save and has a CON of 14, he still is over 50% damaged by a single spell. Do you think he is going to stick around and try to duke it out with you suspecting that a second such spell could kill him?


If you think that sucks, you have a very skewed idea of what is powerful.

 

[Merlion]

Other times you need "Kill it, kill it, killitKILLITKILLIT!!!" ... hire a sorcerer.

But when it comes to killing something this will rarely if ever be an issue. If you just need to kill something pretty much any attack spell will do, unless the only attack spell you have is an energy spell of a type the creature is immune or highly resistance too.

You miss the point. If you come up on a prismatic wall, and need to bypass it now, the sorcerer will be better at it. If you need to take the thing down, which takes more time, the wizard will be better.

This is a better example. However, I would say the chances of a given Sorcerer knowing all the neccesary spells to bring down a Prismatic Wall (Especially knowing Daylight and Gust of Wind and Passwall as a Sorcerer) seem quite low to me. Whereas a Wizard is more likely to have picked up those spells. But he is unlikely to have them prepared. But, he will quite possibly know them, and so have the option of bringing it down later if that is an option, whereas the Sorcerer will not unless he knows all of those spells.


And of course, thats also just an example of how powerful Prismatic Sphere is

It is indeed. It is his greatest strength. Offset, in my opinion, by the drive to use that diversity. Frankly, I think any wizard with 3 9th level slots should have: Time Stop, Foresight, and an open slot. The sorcerer is also able to have those two spells, but he can cast them more times, and have a third one ready. So the question is "how important is it that you get the right 9th level spell instead of being able to cast those two necessary spells multiple times".

My thing is this. Most spells are going to be of some minimal use most of the time. And in some ways thats an even point between Wiz and Sor. However, those spells that are useless in certain circumstances (Knock for instance which is useless for anything but opening locks) are pretty much never going to be even learned by Sorcerers, because since they have so few choices, making one thats only going to be useful in such limited circumstances isnt such a great idea. A Wizard however has more choices, and so is able to learn those situational spells. And he has enough slots to prepare the bread and butter stuff, and a few of those situational spells that he may or may not need, especially if he does have some inkling of whats going on. But the Sorcerer doesnt have that option. His spells known are it .


This can be a factor in combat somewhat as well. Take a 6th level party. The Wizard knows 4 3rd level spells. Dispel Magic, Fly, Fireball, Lightning Bolt lets say. And he can prepare 3 a day. The party is traveling outdoors right now, so he prepares Fly, Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

The 6th level Sorcerer only knows 1 third level spell. He wants to have an attack spell at his highest spell level first, so he chooses Lightning Bolt.

The Party is attacked by trolls. The Sorcerer's Lightning Bolt isnt much help (even if he can cast it 5 times), but the Wizard has Fireball too.


Now I know this isnt an amazing example. The Sorcerer could have Scorching Ray, for instance. And Lightning Bolt is totally useless against trolls.

But I am just trying to illustrate how limited a Sorcerer is, especially in the area that matters most...his highest level spells.

I can dig that. I think, however, that it is only a "bit". Overall, I think it's a wash. It really and truly depends upon the situations the characters find themselves in

But I think overall the Wizard will be more useful in more situations. That has been my experience, as well as being supported by the mechanics.

and once again:

It even says that in the 3.5 PH! It states under Role for Sorcerer that a party with a Sorcerer would be well advised to get an additional caster to make up for the sorcerers lack of versatility!

I dont think much more needs to be said.

 

[Henry]

...reconstructing an entire spell book is a bit more diffacult and complicated than aqquiring a new sword.

I dunno - if you're talking about plain nonmagical swords, then yes, but if the fighter wants to get back what he lost, and it's magical, will cost him as much (and in some cases more) than what the wizard has to pay to get all his spells back. If he knows let's say 28 levels of spells by 6th character level (one page per level, and that's not counting purchases or finds), then that's 2800 gp to regain a whole spell book. (well, 2900 gp because it's 100 gp for the empty book). Being generous, let's say he knows 40 levels of spells by 6th level. That's 4,000 gp, whereas the fighter probably owns that much in gear himself. If the wizard were merely duplicating his spell book while he still had his old one, then that's 2,000 gp to do it! A gold piece of prevention is worth a platinum piece of cure, as they say, and I would hope our fighter is correspondingly storing up in some big city moneylender's vault a +1 sword and +1 suit of armor, or at least a rack of masterwork equipment in case he finds himself in bad straits.

The good news is, thanks to scrolls and wands, a wizard need never be helpless even if someone hijacks or destroys his books.

 

[Felix]

But when it comes to killing something this will rarely if ever be an issue

True, I was just trying to communicate immediacy, which the sorc is better at.

I would say the chances of a given Sorcerer knowing all the neccesary spells to bring down a Prismatic Wall ... seem quite low to me.

The Sorcerer wouldn't bring down the Prismatic Wall, that's not what I had intended for you to think ... the sorcerer would bypass it quickly, eliminating the need to bring it down.

Unless it absolutly needs to be taken down. In which case, you're in better hands with 15 minutes and a wizard.

The 6th level Sorcerer only knows 1 third level spell. He wants to have an attack spell at his highest spell level first, so he chooses Lightning Bolt.

So you have an artillery sorcerer, since he wants him most powerful spells to be blast spells. Of course an artillery sorcerer is going to be less versatile than a wizard.

And Lightning Bolt will work just fine against Trolls... they will recieve subdual damage out the wazoo, and once they're down they're helpless, subject to CdG. Or getting their head cut off, if your DM allows that common house rule.

But I am just trying to illustrate how limited a Sorcerer is, especially in the area that matters most...his highest level spells.

I would suggest that what matters most is how all of his spells together work in concert, and not just his highest level spells.

That has been my experience

As you say.

as well as being supported by the mechanics.

Is that while still dismissing the threats of spellbook loss and midnight attack, as you did a few posts up?

I dont think much more needs to be said.

If you need versatility, then the sorcerer is the sub-optimal choice. That isn't the point of this thread, nor is it the source of disagreement here, so you certainly don't need to quote yourself to say it again any more.

 

[Merlion]

I dunno - if you're talking about plain nonmagical swords, then yes, but if the fighter wants to get back what he lost, and it's magical, will cost him as much (and in some cases more) than what the wizard has to pay to get all his spells back. If he knows let's say 28 levels of spells by 6th character level (one page per level, and that's not counting purchases or finds), then that's 2800 gp to regain a whole spell book. (well, 2900 gp because it's 100 gp for the empty book). Being generous, let's say he knows 40 levels of spells by 6th level. That's 4,000 gp, whereas the fighter probably owns that much in gear himself. If the wizard were merely duplicating his spell book while he still had his old one, then that's 2,000 gp to do it! A gold piece of prevention is worth a platinum piece of cure, as they say, and I would hope our fighter is correspondingly storing up in some big city moneylender's vault a +1 sword and +1 suit of armor, or at least a rack of masterwork equipment in case he finds himself in bad straits.

I understand all that. What I am getting at is, if you deprive a fighter of his weapon, even if its an awesome one, he can pick up an ordinary sword and continue to function as a fighter. Not as well. But he still has his BAB, his HPs, his Str score and combat feats. he's still going to be able to hit hard, and take hits which is what a fighter does.


A Wizard without a spellbook, once he runs out of his currently prepared spells, ceases to really be able to function as a wizard.

Even tho....

thanks to scrolls and wands, a wizard need never be helpless even if someone hijacks or destroys his books

he may not be totally helpless. He may have a wand of MM or Fireball, and some scrolls of utility spells. But thats really not even remotely the same. And its very temporary.



Also note if a fighter has some sort of really amazing weapon, to me it seems a bit overboard to destroy it either. I just prefer to attack the characters, rather than attack their ability to function as their character type. The point after all is to enjoy the game, and if you decide your going to enjoy playing a spellcaster being rendered unable to cast spells for long periods just seems...pointless to me.