Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off the oozes

[freyar]

On second thought, this is probably a non-issue since it becomes a natural weapon.

Well, for Cleon's reasoning below, I'd still give it some kind of penalty.

I stuck in the damage limitation (and only one attack) because I didn't really like the idea of a goop ghoul mounting a Deinonychus skeleton and getting a natural weapon more damaging (2d4 bite) than any simple weapon in the SRD, let alone multiple attacks including such weapons. I agree it's a bit of a niche circumstance, so can easily be left out.

A goop ghoul smart enough to hang around dino skeletons deserves the extra damage, I say!

Good point, I didn't consider that. I'd say it can only use a Light or One Handed weapon as a limb since, it's only got "one arm's worth" of pseudo-muscle attached to it.

My rationale for it doing less damage with a battleaxe-arm than a skeleton arm wielding a battleaxe. Is that the battleaxe-arm won't articulate well, or have attachment sites & joint leverage like a skeleton-arm would so it seemed appropriate to reduce its damage. A simple damage penalty would be simpler though.

I guess I wouldn't object too much to it, say, being able to use battleaxes for arms for their default 1d8 damage with the -4 to hit for it only being proficient in simple weapons. The original description indicates its willing to incorporate more complicated weapons (i.e. the "walking pile of swords").

Yeah, I basically agree with this.

I was thinking that if its victim gains Acid Resistance then the goop ghoul's digestive juices won't work on it properly, so it just instinctively spits it out as inedible. But my main reason was so a low level spell caster can save its victim with a Resist Energy (Acid) spell.

Yeah, I can really go eithe rway on this.

Both look good to me. I'd put the growth bit in the Engulf description, but it's as good a fit in the Split write-up. I did originally have a size limitation in Engulf of up to one size category larger than itself, but left it out since the original description was a bit vague about whether a goop ghoul could digest a creature too big for it too envelop entirely (it seemed to imply it couldn’t engulf a creature larger than a man, but then it says it could eat an ogre).

Don't really mind where we put the growth bit.

Isn't this a bit of a problem? That means a goop-ghoul is better off walking around with a Great Axe for an arm and the rest of its body a regular skeleton than if it uses two skeleton-arms to wield that same axe. Not having that -4 non-proficiency penalty is quite an advantage for a 'built-in' weapon.

Hmm... that suggests a tactic we could add to the notes. A goop ghoul using sticks and weapons for an armature is too slow to chase down most prey, so it may lie on the ground until a victim comes close enough for it to stand up and attack them. Of course it could "play dead" as a skeleton too, but has less incentive. Not to mention that adventurers often mistrust fully articulated skeletons that just happen to be lying around.

Interesting tactic. I do prefer the penalty for two-handed weapons.

 

[Shade]

As currently written, the "weapon arms" become natural weapons, and thus no proficiencies (or non-proficiency penalties) apply. That doesn't mean we can't impose a penalty of other sorts, though.

Here's another thought...what if we treat "weapon arms" as secondary natural attacks? That would impose a -5 penalty. Just a thought.

My main hesitation to include resistance to energy (acid) is that, along that line of reasoning, it shouldn't attack acid resistant creatures. With 1d6 acid damage, it could (albeit slowly) dissolve a creature with resistance to acid 5. It also can already be compelled to withdraw from a fire attack, so it's not like low-level characters are without options.

 

[freyar]

Treating weapon arms as secondary attacks will make me happy, but using natural weapons of skeletons should be primary.

I think I'd agree with that reasoning against using resistance to acid, etc, to drive it off.

 

[Cleon]

As currently written, the "weapon arms" become natural weapons, and thus no proficiencies (or non-proficiency penalties) apply. That doesn't mean we can't impose a penalty of other sorts, though.

Here's another thought...what if we treat "weapon arms" as secondary natural attacks? That would impose a -5 penalty. Just a thought.

My main hesitation to include resistance to energy (acid) is that, along that line of reasoning, it shouldn't attack acid resistant creatures. With 1d6 acid damage, it could (albeit slowly) dissolve a creature with resistance to acid 5. It also can already be compelled to withdraw from a fire attack, so it's not like low-level characters are without options.

OK, I'm not that fussed about the Acid resistance idea or the natural weapons damage cap, so why don't we just throw those ideas out.

As for the incorporated weapon-arm bit, I'd prefer to leave it with Strength adjustments (if any) and say it can use any Light or One Handed weapon with a competence penalty (-2 for Light? -4 for One-Handed?) on the attack roll, to reflect its clumsiness without a proper skeleton. I'd prefer it if they could not use 2-handed weapons in this fashion. Consider how ungainly it'd be fighting with a great-axe for an arm and longswords for legs. That's something like a human fencing with an ax-headed overweight crutch while both their legs are in plaster.

 

[Shade]

Fair enough. Updated.

Ready for skills and feats?

Skills: 5
Feats: 1

 

[Cleon]

Fair enough. Updated.

Ready for skills and feats?

Skills: 5
Feats: 1

Shouldn't we drop the "However, due to limitations of the goop ghoul's pseudo-musculature, it gains no Strength bonus when using the skeleton's natural or manufactured weaponry" from the second paragraph of Attach to Skeleton?

The rest of it looks fine at first sight.

As for Skills, my first guess is falling back to that old standby Spot.

 

[Shade]

Sounds good. Updated.

Improved Initiative for the feat?

Advancement: x

CR: 1?

 

[Cleon]

Sounds good. Updated.

Improved Initiative for the feat?

Advancement: x

CR: 1?

I wondered about suggesting Improved Initiative in my last post but started thinking "we always end up giving these beasties Improved Initiative, why can't we give them something different" but was then lost for ideas, and ended up forgetting about it. How about a weapon-related feat.although with its low-mediocre Str, Dex & Int it's not eligible for many. What do you think of Weapon Focus (Morningstar), or whatever other simple weapon we give it as a default?

Advancement should be 3 HD (Medium). Any larger and it Splits, remember.

Its paralysis ability might bump it up to CR 2.

 

[Shade]

I wondered about suggesting Improved Initiative in my last post but started thinking "we always end up giving these beasties Improved Initiative, why can't we give them something different" but was then lost for ideas, and ended up forgetting about it. How about a weapon-related feat.although with its low-mediocre Str, Dex & Int it's not eligible for many. What do you think of Weapon Focus (Morningstar), or whatever other simple weapon we give it as a default?

The problem is that I don't see them as "riding" a particular skeleton very long, so the weapon in question might change.

On the other hand, Weapon Focus (claw) might work, as they'll likely gain claw attacks from most skeletons.

Actually, Weapon Focus (slam) might be best, as it needs to actually hit a victim in order to utilize its paralysis, which leads to the enfulf and skeletal body in the first place.

Advancement should be 3 HD (Medium). Any larger and it Splits, remember.

Its paralysis ability might bump it up to CR 2.

Good points.

 

[Cleon]

The problem is that I don't see them as "riding" a particular skeleton very long, so the weapon in question might change.

On the other hand, Weapon Focus (claw) might work, as they'll likely gain claw attacks from most skeletons.

Actually, Weapon Focus (slam) might be best, as it needs to actually hit a victim in order to utilize its paralysis, which leads to the enfulf and skeletal body in the first place.

Yes, I did worry about it not sticking to one weapon - I suppose it could pick up its old weapon after it switches bones, but Weapon Focus (Slam) would be more useful as its default Feat. Did we ever decide for sure whether it paralysed with its weapon blows or just its Slam attack? The original description was vague about whether all its attacks could paralyze or not, it'd just need to cover its weapon in anaesthetising slime, and we know it has the ability to do so since when it's a "walking pile of longswords and handaxes" it has to cover these weapons in its body to move.

What about its size & weight. We know its 4' in diameter, and I'm guessing it'd be two or three inches thick. Scaling down the SRD oozes that would give it a weight range of 37-199 pounds, with the middle being around 120 pounds.

Actually, I'd prefer an even lower weigh, say 75 or 80 lbs? It doesn't seem that bulky a beast - I imagine it as being very thin, stretchy and tough, so it looks more skeletal than fleshy when its 'wearing' a set of bones.