Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off the oozes

[Shade]

I set it at Medium = 2 HD because the original write-up indicates a regular 2-HD ooze that eats a man-sized victim will double in size and reproduce. Setting it as Medium = 1 HD would mean a goop ghoul would have to eat two humans before splitting.

Yeah, I just felt that slowing the advancement would help keep it in the CR range it will most likely occupy. I suppose it's not a big deal either way.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, I just felt that slowing the advancement would help keep it in the CR range it will most likely occupy. I suppose it's not a big deal either way.

I'd favour leaving it closer to the original monster, but as you say it's no big deal. If we adopt your growth proposals then a DM will just need to have their PCs meet 3 HD goop ghouls if they want them to grow after victory.

 

[Cleon]

Added to Homebrews.

Most of those abilities look great!

Thanks, I've just checked Homebrews and you've copied over the first rough-cut of the SA write up, rather than the (slightly) improved versions of Engulf and Attack to Skeleton we've reached after a bit of brain storming.

Speaking of which, I think Attach to Skeleton needs a couple of tweaks regarding natural weapons (changes in italics):

Attach To Skeleton (Ex)
A goop ghoul can attach itself to the bones of a skeleton and act like muscles and ligaments, thereby using the skeleton as a means of transportation and attack. It takes one round for a goop ghoul to flow over a skeleton and attach itself in order to manipulate it. A goop ghoul can use the skeleton of any two- or four-legged Medium sized creature. It gains a speed of 30 ft. regardless of the sort of skeleton.

Goop ghouls can wield simple weapons if the skeleton possesses that capability, but can not use any armor. An unarmed goop ghoul can make a slam attack for 1d3 damage, or make a single attack with natural weaponry the skeleton possesses, such as fangs or claws, if such exist. However, due to limitations of the goop ghoul's pseudo-musculature it can do no more than 1d6 damage with such skeletal weaponry, plus Strength bonus.

A goop ghoul is usually encountered mounted on a skeleton. The stretched-out goop ghoul resembles rotted tissue, so the creature is easily mistaken for an undead skeleton or deteriorated zombie. It requires a DC 15 Spot check to detect the imposture.

As a goop ghoul is not undead, it cannot be turned. However, it is possible for a goop ghoul to latch onto an undead, such as an animated skeleton. In this case, the goop ghoul has no control over the undead's movement and is more or less just along for the ride. It would be possible for a priest to turn the undead, but the goop ghoul would be free to "abandon skeleton" and seek out a new source of transportation (probably the priest).

Although a goop ghoul prefers the use of skeletons above all else, a goop ghoul can, on rare occasions, attach itself to sturdy rodlike objects that allow movement of the sort it is used to. Thus, several large sticks might be used as a "skeleton" of sorts, good enough for half-normal movement (15 ft.). A goop ghoul using such an improvised armature cannot hold objects or wield a weapon in a normal fashion, but may use melee weapons incorporated into its "skeleton" as natural weapons. Thus, a goop ghoul animating a walking pile of swords and axes can strike with one of its weapon-limbs.

 

[Cleon]

Just had a closer look at the Homebrew entry, and most of it does follow most of the (slightly improved) version of the SA write-ups, not the rough cut. It's only the Split ability that's a direct copy, and we haven't decided on a HD growth mechanism yet.

However, there is a point I'd quibble about, the Engulf power is rewritten to "A cure, heal or remove disease spell targeted at the ooze or its victim also makes a goop ghoul withdraw, though such spells cause no harm to the monster" while my version says the spell has to target the victim.

Surely, if you cast a curative spell on the ooze it will result in the goop ghoul getting better, as it's the target of the spell. Why would this make it retreat?

Also I'm uncertain about you adding cure spells to the list. Am I right in thinking you want any spell of the cure wounds family to repel an engulfing goop ghoul so that low-level characters have a magical means to stop one eating a party-mate?

While understandable, I'm not sure why a goop ghoul would not just keep on digesting its victim if they recovered some of their hit points. Remove Disease has more of a rationale to me, since it kills/expunges parasites, and the Heal spell also wipes away diseases.

How about if the goop ghoul withdraws if the victim receives a spell that opposes its acid or paralytic poison - i.e. Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy (Acid) or Protection from Energy (Acid)? Some of those are pretty low level, and it would seem less arbitrary to me.

My proposed re-write is:

Engulf (Ex)
A goop ghoul can engulf a paralyzed creature as a standard action, merely by flowing its body over them. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. Engulfed creatures are subject to the goop ghoul's paralysis and take 1d8 acid damage per round. If the victim regains movement before being dissolved, they may throw off the goop ghoul by succeeding on a grapple check against the goop ghoul.

A goop ghoul engulfing a victim will immediately release the victim if it takes fire damage. It will also withdraw if any healing magic which alleviates or removes disease, poison or paralysis is applied to the engulfed victim, or magic that provides resistance to acid, though such spells cause no harm to the monster.

(Then something about it growing in HD as it digest a victim)

 

[Shade]

I'd favour leaving it closer to the original monster, but as you say it's no big deal. If we adopt your growth proposals then a DM will just need to have their PCs meet 3 HD goop ghouls if they want them to grow after victory.

Anyone else have a preference?

Speaking of which, I think Attach to Skeleton needs a couple of tweaks regarding natural weapons (changes in italics):

Goop ghouls can wield simple weapons if the skeleton possesses that capability, but can not use any armor. An unarmed goop ghoul can make a slam attack for 1d3 damage, or make a single attack with natural weaponry the skeleton possesses, such as fangs or claws, if such exist. However, due to limitations of the goop ghoul's pseudo-musculature it can do no more than 1d6 damage with such skeletal weaponry, plus Strength bonus.

Is the damage limitation necessary? I'd rather allow any damage dice, but disallow Strength bonus. It seems less kludgy.

A goop ghoul using such an improvised armature cannot hold objects or wield a weapon in a normal fashion, but may use melee weapons incorporated into its "skeleton" as natural weapons. Thus, a goop ghoul animating a walking pile of swords and axes can strike with one of its weapon-limbs.

It looks pretty good. What happens if it has a greataxe, or another two-handed weapon, for a limb?

However, there is a point I'd quibble about, the Engulf power is rewritten to "A cure, heal or remove disease spell targeted at the ooze or its victim also makes a goop ghoul withdraw, though such spells cause no harm to the monster" while my version says the spell has to target the victim.

Surely, if you cast a curative spell on the ooze it will result in the goop ghoul getting better, as it's the target of the spell. Why would this make it retreat?

I got the impression that it had an aversion to healing magic. Honestly, I think the whole bit should be dropped, as it really makes no sense. I can kind of understand the remove disease, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Also I'm uncertain about you adding cure spells to the list. Am I right in thinking you want any spell of the cure wounds family to repel an engulfing goop ghoul so that low-level characters have a magical means to stop one eating a party-mate?

Yep. If we stick with the specific spells causing it to recoil, I think the cure spells are far more CR-appropriate than heal.

While understandable, I'm not sure why a goop ghoul would not just keep on digesting its victim if they recovered some of their hit points. Remove Disease has more of a rationale to me, since it kills/expunges parasites, and the Heal spell also wipes away diseases.

Yeah, I can see that, but I still think it would be better if the goop ghoul itself had some sort of vulnerability to effects that remove disease.

How about if the goop ghoul withdraws if the victim receives a spell that opposes its acid or paralytic poison - i.e. Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy (Acid) or Protection from Energy (Acid)? Some of those are pretty low level, and it would seem less arbitrary to me.

Interesting idea. I'd rather not include the acid resistance effects, but the anti-paralysis concept makes more sense than remove disease.

 

[freyar]

Anyone else have a preference?

Let's go with Medium=2HD, Larger and Smaller as follows from that. I kind of like the idea that they might become a bigger threat relatively easily. 'Course, a smart party should really hit it while it's splitting. Let's also rewrite Split as follows:

Split (Ex): A goop ghoul of 4 or more HD may split into two goop ghouls as a full-round action. Each of the two new goop ghouls has half the HD and hp of the original goop ghoul (round down).

Goop ghouls gain HD in order to reproduce by dissolving Engulfed creatures. Each Medium creature that the goop ghoul kills while Engulfed allows the goop ghoul to gain 2HD (Small creatures allow it to gain 1HD, Large creatures 4HD). If a goop ghoul Splits immediately after stripping a creature to its skeleton, one of the two children will generally claim the skeleton for movement purposes.

Note: should we put a size limitation on the creatures that the goop ghoul can Engulf?

Is the damage limitation necessary? I'd rather allow any damage dice, but disallow Strength bonus. It seems less kludgy.

I'm with Shade here.

It looks pretty good. What happens if it has a greataxe, or another two-handed weapon, for a limb?

Treat it as being one size too large, so -2 to attack.

I got the impression that it had an aversion to healing magic. Honestly, I think the whole bit should be dropped, as it really makes no sense. I can kind of understand the remove disease, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Yep. If we stick with the specific spells causing it to recoil, I think the cure spells are far more CR-appropriate than heal.

Yeah, I can see that, but I still think it would be better if the goop ghoul itself had some sort of vulnerability to effects that remove disease.

Interesting idea. I'd rather not include the acid resistance effects, but the anti-paralysis concept makes more sense than remove disease.

Maybe anti-poison, anti-disease, anti-paralysis spells? Doesn't matter too much to me.

 

[Shade]

Updated.

Note: should we put a size limitation on the creatures that the goop ghoul can Engulf?

Yeah, lets limit it to one size category larger.

Treat it as being one size too large, so -2 to attack.

On second thought, this is probably a non-issue since it becomes a natural weapon.

 

[Cleon]

Is the damage limitation necessary? I'd rather allow any damage dice, but disallow Strength bonus. It seems less kludgy.

I stuck in the damage limitation (and only one attack) because I didn't really like the idea of a goop ghoul mounting a Deinonychus skeleton and getting a natural weapon more damaging (2d4 bite) than any simple weapon in the SRD, let alone multiple attacks including such weapons. I agree it's a bit of a niche circumstance, so can easily be left out.

It looks pretty good. What happens if it has a greataxe, or another two-handed weapon, for a limb?

Good point, I didn't consider that. I'd say it can only use a Light or One Handed weapon as a limb since, it's only got "one arm's worth" of pseudo-muscle attached to it.

My rationale for it doing less damage with a battleaxe-arm than a skeleton arm wielding a battleaxe. Is that the battleaxe-arm won't articulate well, or have attachment sites & joint leverage like a skeleton-arm would so it seemed appropriate to reduce its damage. A simple damage penalty would be simpler though.

I guess I wouldn't object too much to it, say, being able to use battleaxes for arms for their default 1d8 damage with the -4 to hit for it only being proficient in simple weapons. The original description indicates its willing to incorporate more complicated weapons (i.e. the "walking pile of swords").

Interesting idea. I'd rather not include the acid resistance effects, but the anti-paralysis concept makes more sense than remove disease.

I was thinking that if its victim gains Acid Resistance then the goop ghoul's digestive juices won't work on it properly, so it just instinctively spits it out as inedible. But my main reason was so a low level spell caster can save its victim with a Resist Energy (Acid) spell.

 

[Cleon]

Split (Ex): A goop ghoul of 4 or more HD may split into two goop ghouls as a full-round action. Each of the two new goop ghouls has half the HD and hp of the original goop ghoul (round down).

Goop ghouls gain HD in order to reproduce by dissolving Engulfed creatures. Each Medium creature that the goop ghoul kills while Engulfed allows the goop ghoul to gain 2HD (Small creatures allow it to gain 1HD, Large creatures 4HD). If a goop ghoul Splits immediately after stripping a creature to its skeleton, one of the two children will generally claim the skeleton for movement purposes.

Note: should we put a size limitation on the creatures that the goop ghoul can Engulf?

Both look good to me. I'd put the growth bit in the Engulf description, but it's as good a fit in the Split write-up. I did originally have a size limitation in Engulf of up to one size category larger than itself, but left it out since the original description was a bit vague about whether a goop ghoul could digest a creature too big for it too envelop entirely (it seemed to imply it couldn’t engulf a creature larger than a man, but then it says it could eat an ogre).

Maybe anti-poison, anti-disease, anti-paralysis spells? Doesn't matter too much to me.

Works for me, although I like the idea of adding anti-acid it isn't in the original.

 

[Cleon]

It looks pretty good. What happens if it has a greataxe, or another two-handed weapon, for a limb?

Treat it as being one size too large, so -2 to attack.

On second thought, this is probably a non-issue since it becomes a natural weapon.

Isn't this a bit of a problem? That means a goop-ghoul is better off walking around with a Great Axe for an arm and the rest of its body a regular skeleton than if it uses two skeleton-arms to wield that same axe. Not having that -4 non-proficiency penalty is quite an advantage for a 'built-in' weapon.

Hmm... that suggests a tactic we could add to the notes. A goop ghoul using sticks and weapons for an armature is too slow to chase down most prey, so it may lie on the ground until a victim comes close enough for it to stand up and attack them. Of course it could "play dead" as a skeleton too, but has less incentive. Not to mention that adventurers often mistrust fully articulated skeletons that just happen to be lying around.