Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Weredragons: These are people who are able to transform themselves into a hybrid form that combines a humanoid shape with distinctly dragon-like features such as scales, fangs, claws, wings, and a long tail. All have wings, even those species emulating the non-winged gold dragons. Each of these creatures have the same alignment as the dragon it resembles. They have 8 hit dice. Their bites and clawed hands each do 1d6 points of damage. They can also use the dragon’s breath weapon once each day.

Well that's not much to go on. There's also the common FR7 Lycanthrope "template" or rather "guidelines", and I quote:

Some guidelines for creating new lycanthropes are:
● Climate: Any, but tending toward the animal’s range.
● Frequency: Rare.
● Organization: As per normal animal.
● Active cycle: The lycanthropic form is only present during the night.
● Diet: As per animal.
● Intelligence: Any.
● Treasure: Any.
● Alignment: Any.
● Number appearing: As per animal.
● Armor class: Normal animal AC minus 1d4.
● Movement: Normal human or animal rate (depending on form).
● Hit Dice: Lycanthrope hit dice are the sum of normal human and normal animal hit dice.
● Number of attacks: As per animal.
● Damage/attack: At least as dangerous as the normal animal.
● Special attack: As per animal.
● Special defenses: 90% of new lycanthropic species can only be harmed by silver or magical weapons of +1 or greater.
● Magic resistance: 90% of new lycanthropic species have no magical resistance.
● Size: Any hybrid forms are halfway between the human and animal sizes.
● Morale: Most are steady (11-12) or very steady (13-14).

I'm assuming we'll use a similar approach to the Lycanthrope Template, only with a "base dragon" instead of a "base animal". I'm inclined not to give them a Curse of Lycanthropy bite since I don't fancy the idea of campaigns swimming in these critters.

So how close to the original do we want to be? Shall we keep the 8 HD and hybrid form only, or shake it up a bit by allowing full Dragon form and having the HD vary with type of dragon.

For reference, the youngest Small, Medium and Large SRD True Dragons are as follows:

SMALL DRAGONS
Very Young Copper Dragon (Small, 8 HD)
Very Young Black Dragon (Small, 7 HD)
Very Young Brass Dragon (Small, 7 HD)
Very Young White Dragon (Small, 6 HD)
Wyrmling Silver Dragon (Small, 7 HD)
Wyrmling Blue Dragon (Small, 6 HD)
Wyrmling Bronze Dragon (Small, 6 HD)
Wyrmling Green Dragon (Small, 5 HD)

MEDIUM DRAGONS
Young Copper Dragon (Medium, 11 HD)
Young Black Dragon (Medium, 10 HD)
Young Brass Dragon (Medium, 10 HD)
Young White Dragon (Medium, 9 HD)
Very Young Silver Dragon (Medium, 10 HD)
Very Young Blue Dragon (Medium, 9 HD)
Very Young Bronze Dragon (Medium, 9 HD)
Very Young Green Dragon (Medium, 8 HD)
Wyrmling Gold Dragon (Medium, 8 HD)
Wyrmling Red Dragon (Medium, 7 HD)

LARGE DRAGONS
Young Adult Dragon (Large, 17 HD)
Young Adult Dragon (Large, 16 HD)
Young Adult Dragon (Large, 16 HD)
Young Adult White Dragon (Large, 15 HD)
Juvenile Silver Dragon (Large, 15 HD)
Juvenile Blue Dragon (Large, 14 HD)
Juvenile Bronze Dragon (Large, 14 HD)
Juvenile Green Dragon (Large, 13 HD)
Very Young Gold Dragon (Large, 11 HD)
Very Young Red Dragon (Large, 10 HD)

So it's the biggest species of True Dragon - the Red and Gold - that have the fewest Hit Dice when they reach Medium or Large, indeed they hatch out at Medium size.

The FR7 Weredragon's 8 Hit Dice does match two of the lowest-HD Medium Dragons, the Wyrmling Gold and Very Young Green, so we could use that as the baseline for our Weredragon's Hit Dice.

The averages are 6.5 Hit Dice for Small, 9.1 Hit Dice for Medium, 14.1 Hit Dice for Large, which suggests 5 or 6 levels of Dragon for Small Weredragons, 8 levels for Medium and 13 levels for Large.

We'll probably want to expand it to include Tiny and Huge or Larger Weredragons too.

If we have different types of Weredragons have different Hit Dice, it'd seem simpler to base it on age categories - i.e. a Small Weredragon has, say, a number of dragon levels equal to the Hit Dice of a Wyrmling Dragon, a Medium Weredragon uses a Very Young Dragon's Hit Dice, a Large Weredragon uses a Young Dragon's HD, a Huge one a Juvenile Dragon and so on up to a Colossal Weredragon having dragon levels equal to a Mature Dragon of its type (at +3 per age category that's 18 HD more than a Tiny Weredragon). All True Dragons can grow up to Gargantuan size, so if this template follows the "within one size category of the base creature’s size" rule of the Lycanthropy template all Weredragons will be able to go up to Colossal.

Don't really want a Colossal Weredragon to have 40+ dragon Hit Dice like a Colossal True Dragon, since it'll have plenty of giant Hit Dice from its base creature already.

'Course we could get around that by just having this template apply to Humanoids, but I quite like the idea of Giant Weredragons and the like. Presumably they tend to match the elemental type - i.e. Frost Giant White Weredragons.

 

[Cleon]

It's been literally just over a month since I last posted on this conversion and no-one replied, so I think I'll proceed without you!

At least I'll post a Working Draft to get things started…

 

[Cleon]

Weredragon [True Drakanthrope] (Template)
This reptilian humanoid is clearly no mere lizardfolk. It looks magnificent and terrifying, from the horns that crown its head to the tip of its sinuously powerful tail. The gaze of its slit-pupilled eyes shows piercing intensity and intelligence.
Note: details of the hybrid form's appearance will match the base dragon, which determines the weredragon's scale color, whether it has wings, gills, fins, or horns (and what those look like) and similar details. For examples, see Sample Weredragons.

Background.

Creating a Weredragon
"Weredragon" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Becoming a drakanthrope is very much like multiclassing as a dragon and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice.

The weredragon takes on the characteristics of some type of creature of the dragon type (referred to hereafter as the base dragon). The base dragon must be a true dragon, drakanthropes based on normal monster dragons such as dragon turtles or wyverns use the Weredrake template instead.

Size and Type: Same as base creature?

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype plus any subtypes possessed by the base dragon.

The base dragon can be any true dragon whose size is within one size category of the base creature's size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). All the sizes of the base dragon's age categories are available. For example, a copper weredragon can be Diminutive to Colossal in size, ranging from one size smaller than the Tiny-sized copper dragon wyrmling up to one size bigger than a Gargantuan wyrm or great wyrm copper dragon.

Weredragons can adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base dragon. A weredragon's hybrid form is the same size as the base creature or the base dragon, whichever is larger.

Some weredragons are unable to shapechange into dragon form and are only able to adopt their base creature and hybrid forms.

A weredragon uses either the base creature or the base dragon's statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here.

Hit Dice and Hit Points:

Hit Dice and Hit Points #1: Same as base creature plus a number of d12 Hit Dice based on its size and base dragon type as set out below.

Weredragon of Small size or larger gain HD equal to the Hit Dice of the base dragon's wyrmling age category.

Tiny weredragons have additional HD equal to half the Hit Dice of their wyrmling age (round halves up for wyrmlings with 3, 5, 7 etc. Hit Dice). If the base dragon's wyrmling age has a single Hit Dice a Tiny weredragon gets +½ HD.

Diminutive and smaller weredragons add one-quarter the Hit Dice of their wyrmling age, rounding halves upwards. Wyrmlings with a single Hit Dice get +¼ HD, 2 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +½ HD, 3–5 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +1HD, 6–9 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +2HD, 10–13 Hit Dice wyrmling get +3 HD and so on, with every four additional wyrmling Hit Dice increasing the weredragon's Hit Dice by another +1HD.

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	Additional Hit Dice	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Diminutive to Fine	One-quarter wyrmling	1d12	—	—	—	1d12
Tiny	One-half wyrmling	2d12	3d12	3d12	—	2d12
Small to Colossal	Wyrmling	4d12	6d12	5d12	7d12	3d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	Additional Hit Dice	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Diminutive to Fine	One-quarter wyrmling	1d12	—	1d12	—	—
Tiny	One-half wyrmling	2d12	3d12	3d12	—	4d12
Small to Colossal	Wyrmling	4d12	6d12	5d12	8d12	7d12

To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the weredragon has in each form.

Speed: Same as base creature?

Speed: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. Hybrids use the base creature's speed and have a fly speed equal to one-half the base dragon's flight speed (if any) with a maneuverability one step worse than the base dragon's (minimum clumsy). If the base creature already has a fly speed, the hybrid form uses whichever flying speed and flight maneverability is better.

Armor Class: Same as base creature?

Armor Class: Weredragons have their natural bonus increase by +2 in humanoid or giant form and in dragon form their natural armor bonus is equal to the base dragon's wyrmling age category's plus an additional +[4?] natural armor bonus per size category [above Medium? larger than the base dragon's wyrmling?] [I'm inclined to have smaller ones keep the wyrmling's NA rather than reduce it further, i.e. "a reduction of –# natural armor bonus per size category smaller than ???"]. In hybrid form, a weredragon's natural armor bonus is equal to that of its base creature form or dragon form, whichever is better.

Weredragon Natural Armor Adjustments (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	Armor Modifier	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Diminutive	– NA	+ NA	—	—	—	+ NA
Tiny	– NA	+3 NA	+ NA	+ NA	—	+2 NA
Small	– NA	+ NA	+5 NA	+4 NA	+ NA	+ NA
Medium	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+6 NA	+ NA
Large	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Huge	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Gargantuan	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Colossal	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA

Weredragon Natural Armor Adjustments (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	Armor Modifier	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Diminutive	+ NA	+ NA	—	+ NA	—	—
Tiny	+ NA	+3 NA	+ NA	+4 NA	—	+ NA
Small	+ NA	+ NA	+5 NA	+ NA	+7 NA	+5 NA
Medium	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Large	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Huge	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Gargantuan	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA
Colossal	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA	+ NA

Base Attack/Grapple: Same as base creature?

Base Attack/Grapple: Add the base attack bonus for the base creature to the base attack bonus of the base dragon's Dragon Hit Dice. The weredragon's grapple bonus uses its attack bonus and modifiers for Strength and size depending on the weredragon's form.

Attacks: Same as base creature?

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. [If the base dragon has wings or tail slap attacks the weredragon gains those natural weapons in hybrid form.]

Damage: Same as base creature?

Damage: .

Special Attacks: A weredragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 weredragon's HD + weredragon's ??? modifier unless noted otherwise.

Special Attacks: A weredragon retains the special attacks of the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form it is using, and also gains the special attacks described below. Unless otherwise noted, weredragons only gain the special attacks of the base dragon's wyrmling age category regardless of the base dragon's size and Hit Dice.

In hybrid form a weredragon retains the special attacks of the base creature and gains the special attacks described below. If the base dragon has a special attack tied to another natural weapon, such as a [dragon's attack] or the crush attack of a Huge true dragon, it also retains that special attack in hybrid form. If both base forms possess the same special attack, the hybrid form uses the base dragon's version.

Breath Weapon (Su): A weredragon can use its breath weapon when in hybrid form.

Crush (Ex): A weredragon whose base dragon possesses the crush special attack can use it when in hybrid form.

Frightful Presence (Su): A weredragon whose base dragon possesses the frightful presence special attack can use it when in hybrid form.

Tail Sweep (Ex): A weredragon whose base dragon possesses the tail sweep special attack can use it when in hybrid form.

Spells and Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Weredragons based on true dragons only gain spells and spell-like abilities that the base dragon possesses at the wyrmling age category.

How many True Dragon special attacks do we want to allow - I was thinking we should restrict it to what the base dragon can do at at wyrmling age plus being able to access the true dragon default special attacks of Breath Weapon, Crush, Frightful Presence and Tail Sweep.

I don't think we should give weredragons the usual Curse of Lycanthropy special attack - mainly to avoid the risk of PC weredragons!.

Special Qualities: A weredragon retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 weredragon's HD + weredragon's ??? modifier unless noted otherwise.

Special Qualities: A weredragon retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base dragon, and also gains those described below. Unless otherwise noted, weredragons only gain the special qualities of the base dragon's wyrmling age category regardless of the base dragon's size and Hit Dice.

Saves: .

Saves: Add the base save bonuses of the base dragon's Dragon Hit Dice to the base save bonuses of the base creature.

Abilities: A weredragon's mental ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11 or +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, whichever is higher.

When it assumes dragon form, a weredragon's physical ability scores also improve. The base adjustments are equal to the base dragon's wyrmling ability scores –10 or –11 plus, if the dragon form is larger than the base creature, the weredragon's Strength and Constitution increase according to the Table: Changes to Statistics by Size. If the ability improvement would be less than +8 Strength and +2 Constitution, the weredragon gains those adjustments instead. A weredragon in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Table: Changes to Statistics by Size

Base Creature Size​	Size of Dragon & Hybrid Form​	Strength​	Constitution
Fine	Diminutive​	Same​	Same​
Diminutive	Tiny​	+2​	Same​
Tiny	Small​	+4​	+2​
Small	Medium​	+4​	+4​
Medium	Large​	+8​	+4​
Large	Huge​	+8​	+4​
Huge	Gargantuan​	+8​	+4​
Gargantuan	Colossal​	+8​	+4​

Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size.

In addition, a weredragon may also gain ability scores increases by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Example: A wyrmling brass dragon is a Tiny dragon with Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13; applying –10 or –11 comes to Str +0, Dex +0, Con +2. In hybrid form, a brass weredragon uses the weredragon's minimum Strength adjustment of +8. ???.

Skills: Weredragons have a +X racial bonus on Y checks? Otherwise same as the base creature.

Skills: A weredragon gains skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its dragon form, as if it had multiclassed into the Dragon type. (Dragon is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any Dragon Hit Die.) Any skill given in the base dragon's description is a class skill for the weredragon's dragon levels. In any form, a weredragon also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base dragon, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form.

Feats: Same as base creature?

Feats: Add the base dragon's feats to the base creature's. If this results in a weredragon having the same feat twice, the weredragon gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the weredragon more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats.

It's possible that a weredragon cannot meet the prerequisites for all its feats when in humanoid form. If this occurs, the weredragon still has the feats, but cannot use them when in humanoid form. A weredragon receives Iron Will as a bonus feat.

Environment: Same as base creature?
Organization: Same as base creature?
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +X?
Treasure: Same as base creature?
Alignment: Same as base creature?
Advancement: Same as base creature?
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +X?

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base dragon?
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-7).
Challenge Rating: ??.
Treasure: Same as either the base creature or base dragon? [or combine the two?]
Alignment: Same as the base dragon?
Advancement: By character class or age category?
Level Adjustment: .

Sample Weredragon
The following sample creature has gained the weredragon template.

In the Realms
During the Time of Troubles … .

Originally appeared in FR7 - Hall of Heroes (1989).

 

[Cleon]

I wondered about adding an additional modifier to smooth out the HD range of the "true weredragons". Currently a Medium-size specimen ranges from +6 HD (White Weredragon) to +11 HD (Gold Weredragon), but the smaller wyrmlings (Black, Brass, Copper, White) are Tiny, a whole two sizes smaller than the Medium size of the larger wyrmlings (Gold, Red, Red).

Like so:

Hit Dice and Hit Points #2: Same as base creature plus a number of d12 hit dice depending on the base dragon. If the base dragon has normal monster Hit Dice the weredragon simply adds the base dragon's HD. If the base dragon is a true dragon with age categories and the weredragon is Small size or larger, it gains HD equal to the dragon's wyrmling age plus an additional +3HD for every size category above Small plus an adjustment of –1HD penalty per size category the base dragon's wyrmling stage is smaller than Medium size. Tiny weredragons have additional HD equal to half the Hit Dice of their wyrmling age (round up for wyrmlings with 3, 5, 7 etc. Hit Dice, if the wyrmling age has a single Hit Dice a Diminutive weredragon gets +½ HD). Diminutive and smaller weredragons have one-quarter the Hit Dice of a wyrmling (wyrmlings with a single Hit Dice get +¼ HD, 2 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +½ HD, 3–5 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +1HD, 6–9 Hit Dice wyrmlings get +2HD, 10-13 Hit Dice wyrmling get +3 HD and so on, with every four more wyrmling Hit Dice increasing the additional HD by another +1HD). The following tables present Hit Dice adjustments for the standard dragons.

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	HD Adjustment (M/S/T wyrmlings)	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Medium	+1/+2/+3 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	8d12	6d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	HD Adjustment (M/S/T wyrmlings)	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Medium	+1/+2/+3 HD	7d12	8d12	8d12	9d12	9d12

 

[Cleon]

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	HD Adjustment (M/S/T wyrmlings)	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Medium	+1/+2/+3 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	8d12	6d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	HD Adjustment (M/S/T wyrmlings)	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Medium	+1/+2/+3 HD	7d12	8d12	8d12	9d12	9d12

Upon reflection, you can get similar results with.

If the base dragon is a true dragon with age categories it gains additional Hit Dice as follows: Small and Medium weredragons gain Hit Dice equal to half the Hit Dice of the base dragon's wyrmling age category (rounded down) plus +2HD for Small weredragons and +5HD for Medium weredragons.

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	(HD Adjustment)	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Small	One-half wyrmling +2 HD	4d12	5d12	4d12	5d12	3d12
Medium	One-half wyrmling +5 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	8d12	6d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	(HD Adjustment)	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Small	One-half wyrmling +2 HD	4d12	5d12	4d12	6d12	5d12
Medium	One-half wyrmling +5 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	9d12	8d12

Tiny weredragons have additional HD equal to half the Hit Dice of their wyrmling age (rounded down), if the wyrmling age has a single Hit Dice the Tiny weredragon gets +½HD. Diminutive and smaller weredragons have one-quarter the Hit Dice of a wyrmling (wyrmlings with a single Hit Dice gives +¼HD, 2–3 Hit Dice wyrmlings give +½HD, 4–7 Hit Dice gives +1HD, 8–11 Hit Dice gives +2HD and so on, with +1HD per four Hit Dice).

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	(HD Adjustment)	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Diminutive	One-quarter wyrmling	1d12	—	—	—	½d12
Tiny	One-half wyrmling	2d12	3d12	2d12	—	1d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	(HD Adjustment)	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Diminutive	One-quarter wyrmling	1d12	—	1d12	—	—
Tiny	One-half wyrmling	2d12	3d12	2d12	—	3d12

Weredragons or Large size or more gain dragon HD equal to the base dragon's wyrmling age category's Hit Dice plus an addition +3HD for every size category above Small.

The above would result in the bigger sizes having the same progression as Hit Dice #1.

Putting that together results in:

Hit Dice and Hit Points #2: Same as base creature plus a number of d12 hit dice depending on the base dragon. If the base dragon has normal monster Hit Dice the weredragon simply adds the base dragon's HD. If the base dragon is a true dragon with age categories it gains additional Hit Dice as follows:

Small and Medium weredragons gain Hit Dice equal to half the Hit Dice of the base dragon's wyrmling age category (rounded down) plus +2HD for Small weredragons and +5HD for Medium weredragons.

Tiny weredragons have additional HD equal to half the Hit Dice of their wyrmling age (rounded down), if the wyrmling age has a single Hit Dice the Tiny weredragon gets +½HD. Diminutive and smaller weredragons have one-quarter the Hit Dice of a wyrmling (wyrmlings with a single Hit Dice gives +¼HD, 2–3 Hit Dice wyrmlings give +½HD, 4–7 Hit Dice gives +1HD, 8–11 Hit Dice gives +2HD and so on, with +1HD per four Hit Dice).

Weredragons or Large size or more gain dragon HD equal to the base dragon's wyrmling age category's Hit Dice plus an addition +3HD for every size category above Small.

The following tables present Hit Dice adjustments for the standard dragons.

Weredragon Hit Dice (Chromatic Base Dragons)

Size	Additional Hit Dice	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Diminutive	One-quarter wyrmling	1d12	—	—	—	½d12
Tiny	One-half wyrmling	2d12	3d12	2d12	—	1d12
Small	One-half wyrmling +2 HD	4d12	5d12	4d12	5d12	3d12
Medium	One-half wyrmling +5 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	8d12	6d12
Large	Wyrmling +6 HD	10d12	12d12	11d12	13d12	9d12
Huge	Wyrmling +9 HD	13d12	15d12	14d12	16d12	12d12
Gargantuan	Wyrmling +12 HD	16d12	18d12	17d12	19d12	15d12
Colossal	Wyrmling +15 HD	19d16	21d12	20d12	22d12	18d12

Weredragon Hit Dice (Metallic Base Dragons)

Size	Additional Hit Dice	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Diminutive	One-Quarter Wyrmling	1d12	—	1d12	—	—
Tiny	One-Half Wyrmling	2d12	3d12	2d12	—	3d12
Small	One-half wyrmling +2 HD	4d12	5d12	4d12	6d12	5d12
Medium	One-half wyrmling +5 HD	7d12	8d12	7d12	9d12	8d12
Large	Wyrmling +6 HD	10d12	12d12	11d12	14d1	13d12
Huge	Wyrmling +9 HD	13d12	15d12	14d12	17d12	16d12
Gargantuan	Wyrmling +12 HD	16d12	18d12	17d12	20d12	19d12
Colossal	Wyrmling +15 HD	19d12	21d12	20d12	23d12	22d12

Hmm… overall I think I prefer progression #1. The "smoother" Small/Medium range of #2 is nice, but the big jump between Medium and Large additional HD is a bit ugly.

 

[Cleon]

I'm thinking we should rename these creatures since AD&D also used the name "Weredragon" for the Song Dragon.

Maybe call the template "Dracanthrope" since they are dragon-based zoanthropes?

Actually, "Drakanthrope" might be closer to proper Greek, since I believe "Draco" is the Latin form. But it wouldn't be the first time a taxonomic-style name mixed Greek and Latin.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, and I came upon an interesting factoid in the Wikipedia entry for Cynanthropy:

The weredog or cynanthrope is also known in Timor. It is described as a human/canine shapeshifter who is also capable of transforming other people into animals against their wills. These transformations are usually into prey animals such as goats, so that the cynanthrope can devour them without discovery of the crime (Rose, 390).

That's cool enough to add as an "evil option" for Weredogs, or maybe as a Dogwere magical beast?

It's basically just a matter of exchanging Curse of Lycanthropy for some kind of baleful polymorph type ability that turns a target creature (maybe limited to humanoids?) into a goat or other prey animal of the same size.

 

[Cleon]

For convenience and comparison, here are tables for the standard dragons' Hit Dice, Natural Armour and Ability Scores by size/age:

Chromatic Base Dragons Hit Dice by Size

Size	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Tiny	4d12 wyrmling	—	—	—	3d12 wyrmling
Small	7d12 very young	6d12 wyrmling	5d12 wyrmling	—	6d12 very young
Medium	10d12 young	9d12 very young	8d12 very young	7d12 wyrmling	9d12 young
Large	16d12 young adult	15d12 juvenile	14d12 juvenile	10d12 very young	15d12 young adult
Huge	22d12 mature adult	21d12 adult	20d12 adult	19d12 young adult	21d12 mature adult
Gargantuan	34d12 wyrm	33d12 ancient	32d12 ancient	28d12 old	33d12 wyrm
Colossal	—	—	—	40d12 great wyrm	—

Metallic Base Dragons Hit Dice by Size

Size	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Tiny	4d12 wyrmling	—	5d12 wyrmling	—	—
Small	7d12 very young	6d12 wyrmling	8d12 very young	—	7d12 wyrmling
Medium	10d12 young	9d12 very young	11d12 young	8d12 wyrmling	10d12 very young
Large	16d12 young adult	15d12 juvenile	17d12 young adult	11d12 very young	16d12 juvenile
Huge	22d12 mature adult	21d12 adult	23d12 mature adult	20d12 young adult	22d12 adult
Gargantuan	34d12 wyrm	33d12 ancient	35d12 wyrm	29d12 old	34d12 ancient
Colossal	—	—	—	38d12 wyrm	40d12 great wyrm

Chromatic Base Dragons Natural Armor by Size

Size	Black	Blue	Green	Red	White
Tiny	+3 NA wyrmling	—	—	—	+2 NA wyrmling
Small	+6 NA very young	+5 NA wyrmling	+4 NA wyrmling	—	+5 NA very young
Medium	+9 NA young	+8 NA very young	+7 NA very young	+6 NA wyrmling	+8 NA young
Large	+15 NA young adult	+14 NA juvenile	+13 NA juvenile	+9 NA very young	+14 NA young adult
Huge	+21 NA mature adult	+20 NA adult	+19 NA adult	+18 NA young adult	+20 NA mature adult
Gargantuan	+33 NA wyrm	+32 NA ancient	+31 NA ancient	+27 NA old	+32 NA wyrm
Colossal	—	—	—	+39 NA great wyrm	—

Metallic Base Dragons Natural Armor by Size

Size	Brass	Bronze	Copper	Gold	Silver
Tiny	+3 NA wyrmling	—	+4 NA wyrmling	—	—
Small	+6 NA very young	+5 NA wyrmling	+7 NA very young	—	+6 NA wyrmling
Medium	+9 NA young	+8 NA very young	+10 NA young	+7 NA wyrmling	+9 NA very young
Large	+15 NA young adult	+14 NA juvenile	+16 NA young adult	+10 NA very young	+15 NA juvenile
Huge	+21 NA mature adult	+20 NA adult	+22 NA mature adult	+19 NA young adult	+21 NA adult
Gargantuan	+33 NA wyrm	+32 NA ancient	+34 NA wyrm	+28 NA old	+33 NA ancient
Colossal	—	—	—	+37 NA wyrm	+39 NA great wyrm

Chromatic Base Dragons Ability Modifiers by Size

Size	Black	Blue	Green
Tiny	Str+0 Con+2 Int–2 Wis+0 Cha–2 wyrmling	—	—
Small	Str+2 Con+2 Int–2 Wis+0 Cha–2 v. young	Str+2 Con+2 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 wyrmling	Str+2 Con+2 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 wyrmling
Medium	Str+4 Con+4 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha–0 young Str+6 Con+4 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 juvenile	Str+4 Con+4 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 v. young Str+6 Con+4 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 young	Str+4 Con+4 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 v. young Str+6 Con+4 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 young
Large	Str+8 Con+6 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 y. adult Str+12 Con+8 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 adult	Str+8 Con+6 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 juvenile Str+12 Con+8 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 y. adult	Str+8 Con+6 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 juvenile Str+12 Con+8 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 y. adult
Huge	Str+16 Con+10 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 m. adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 old Str+20 Con+12 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 v. old Str+22 Con+12 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 ancient	Str+16 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 m. adult Str+20 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 old Str+22 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 v. old	Str+16 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 m. adult Str+20 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 old Str+22 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 v. old
Gargantuan	Str+24 Con+14 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 wyrm Str+26 Con+16 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 g. wyrm	Str+24 Con+14 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 ancient Str+26 Con+16 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 wyrm Str+28 Con+16 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 g. wyrm	Str+24 Con+14 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 ancient Str+26 Con+16 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 wyrm Str+28 Con+16 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 g. wyrm

Chromatic Base Dragons Ability Modifiers by Size

Size	Red	White
Tiny	—	Str+0 Con+2 Int–4 Wis+0 Cha–4 wyrmling
Small	—	Str+2 Con+2 Int–4 Wis+0 Cha–4 very young
Medium	Str+6 Con+4 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 wyrmling	Str+4 Con+4 Int–4 Wis+0 Cha–4 young Str+6 Con+4 Int–2 Wis+0 Cha–2 juvenile
Large	Str+10 Con+6 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 very young Str+14 Con+6 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 young Str+18 Con+8 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 juvenile	Str+8 Con+6 Int–2 Wis+0 Cha+0 young adult Str+12 Con+8 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+2 adult
Huge	Str+20 Con+10 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 young adult Str+22 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+8 Cha+6 adult Str+22 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 mature adult	Str+16 Con+10 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 mature adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 old Str+20 Con+12 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 very old Str+22 Con+12 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 ancient
Gargantuan	Str+24 Con+14 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 old Str+26 Con+16 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 very old Str+28 Con+18 Int+14 Wis+14 Cha+14 ancient Str+30 Con+20 Int+14 Wis+14 Cha+14 wyrm	Str+24 Con+14 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+6 wyrm Str+26 Con+16 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 great wyrm
Colossal	Str+34 Con+20 Int+16 Wis+16 Cha+16 great wyrm	—

Metallic Base Dragons Ability Modifiers by Size

Size	Brass	Bronze	Copper
Tiny	Str+0 Con+2 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 wyrmling	—	Str+0 Con+2 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 wyrmling
Small	Str+2 Con+2 Int+0 Wis+0 Cha+0 v. young	Str+2 Con+2 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 wyrmling	Str+2 Con+2 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 v. young
Medium	Str+4 Con+4 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 young Str+6 Con+4 Int+2 Wis+2 Cha+2 juvenile	Str+4 Con+4 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 v. young Str+6 Con+4 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 young	Str+4 Con+4 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 young Str+6 Con+4 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 juvenile
Large	Str+8 Con+6 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 y. adult Str+12 Con+8 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 adult	Str+8 Con+6 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 juvenile Str+12 Con+8 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 y. adult	Str+8 Con+6 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 y adult Str+12 Con+8 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 adult
Huge	Str+16 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 m. adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 old Str+20 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 v. old Str+22 Con+12 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 ancient	Str+16 Con+10 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 m. adult Str+20 Con+12 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 old Str+22 Con+12 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 v. old	Str+16 Con+10 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 m. adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 old Str+20 Con+12 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 v. old Str+22 Con+12 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 ancient
Gargantuan	Str+24 Con+14 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 wyrm Str+26 Con+16 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 g. wyrm	Str+24 Con+14 Int+14 Wis+14 Cha+14 ancient Str+26 Con+16 Int+16 Wis+16 Cha+16 wyrm Str+28 Con+16 Int+16 Wis+16 Cha+16 g. wyrm	Str+24 Con+14 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 wyrm Str+26 Con+16 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 g. wyrm

Chromatic Base Dragons Ability Modifiers by Size

Size	Gold	Silver
Tiny	—	—
Small	—	Str+2 Con+2 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 wyrmling
Medium	Str+6 Con+4 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 wyrmling	Str+4 Con+4 Int+4 Wis+4 Cha+4 very young Str+6 Con+4 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 young
Large	Str+10 Con+6 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 very young Str+14 Con+6 Int+6 Wis+6 Cha+6 young Str+18 Con+8 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 juvenile	Str+8 Con+6 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 juvenile Str+12 Con+8 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 young adult
Huge	Str+20 Con+10 Int+8 Wis+8 Cha+8 young adult Str+22 Con+10 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 adult Str+24 Con+12 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 mature adult	Str+16 Con+10 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 adult Str+18 Con+10 Int+10 Wis+10 Cha+10 mature adult Str+20 Con+12 Int+12 Wis+12 Cha+12 old Str+22 Con+12 Int+14 Wis+14 Cha+14 very old
Gargantuan	Str+28 Con+14 Int+14 Wis+14 Cha+14 old Str+30 Con+16 Int+16 Wis+16 Cha+16 very old Str+32 Con+18 Int+18 Wis+18 Cha+18 ancient	Str+24 Con+14 Int+16 Wis+16 Cha+16 ancient Str+28 Con+18 Int+18 Wis+18 Cha+18 wyrm
Colossal	Str+34 Con+20 Int+20 Wis+20 Cha+20 wyrm Str+36 Con+22 Int+22 Wis+22 Cha+22 great wyrm	Str+32 Con+20 Int+20 Wis+20 Cha+20 great wyrm

 

[freyar]

Whoa, that is a lot of text. It literally took me a week of EN World time to get through that!

But couldn't we somehow simplify this? That's a lot of tables! Why don't we pick a particular age category of base dragon to determine things like physical ability boosts, extra HD, etc (perhaps tied to size of that age category)? Other attributes can be tied to base creature size (hybrid natural attack damage, etc). EDIT: I think this would also allow some flexibility in terms of using other true dragons. I'm not quite sure what to do with other critters of the dragon type without age categories, though. Maybe just use their base MM/SRD/CC size.

I like the dracanthrope name (and the cynanthrope idea)!

 

[Cleon]

Whoa, that is a lot of text. It literally took me a week of EN World time to get through that!

But couldn't we somehow simplify this? That's a lot of tables! Why don't we pick a particular age category of base dragon to determine things like physical ability boosts, extra HD, etc (perhaps tied to size of that age category)? Other attributes can be tied to base creature size (hybrid natural attack damage, etc).

EDIT: I think this would also allow some flexibility in terms of using other true dragons.

Erm, that's pretty much what the draft template proposes using the Wyrmling as the "base age category" and adjusting it for the base creature's size. The tables are for what values these result in for the standard SRD true dragons for ease of calculation.

The "Creating a Weredragon" text allows other true dragon based weredragons, I just didn't include every variety in the example tables.

I'm not quite sure what to do with other critters of the dragon type without age categories, though. Maybe just use their base MM/SRD/CC size.

I considered including those but decided to stick to true dragons to start with just to make it slightly simpler at least to start with.

If we do decide to add them just using the standard lycanthrope template's approach to the HD and size would be the obvious way to go. Some such weredragons would only work with a Giant as the base creature - the Dragon Turtle's Huge size would require a Large base creature for example. Could have a Medium Humanoid base creature's for a Weredragonne or a Small Humanoid for a Werepseudodragon. Hmm… a Forest Gnome or Halfling Werepseudodragon would make an interesting NPC…

I like the dracanthrope name (and the cynanthrope idea)!

So before I do a copy-replace for "Weredragon" what spelling do you prefer, Dracanthrope or Drakanthrope? I think I like the "k" version better.

Do you want to do the Cynanthrope in parallel or leave it until we've finished these lizardmorphers?

 

[freyar]

Spelling with a "k" looks good.
Let's save the cyanthrope until later.

I clearly didn't follow what was going on with those tables. But I still think we can be simpler, if I'm understanding you now. You seem to be scaling the HD from the wyrmling true dragon depending on the size of the base creature. I'd propose using the idea of the standard lycanthrope but treating the wyrmling (or maybe the very young) true dragon similarly to the base animal, at least for physical characteristics. That is, add HD and BAB, NA+2, use base dragon's physical ability modifiers in appropriate form.

Are you ok with that?

 

[Cleon]

Let's save the cyanthrope until later.

Updating Weredragon Drakanthrope Working Draft with the new name.

Let's save the cyanthrope until later.

Fine by me!

I clearly didn't follow what was going on with those tables. But I still think we can be simpler, if I'm understanding you now. You seem to be scaling the HD from the wyrmling true dragon depending on the size of the base creature. I'd propose using the idea of the standard lycanthrope but treating the wyrmling (or maybe the very young) true dragon similarly to the base animal, at least for physical characteristics. That is, add HD and BAB, NA+2, use base dragon's physical ability modifiers in appropriate form.

Are you ok with that?

So are you suggesting we just use base Wyrmling Lycanthrope-template style adjustments for ALL sizes of true dragon based Drakanthrope?

I tried that, but it makes particularly big or small Drakanthropes have Hit Dice that seemed unbalanced compared to regular monster dragons.

Lets say we have an ordinary Huge Giant such as a Cloud Giant. The standard Wyrmling True Dragons range from 3 HD (White Dragon) to 8 HD (Gold Dragon), so if we use Wyrmling-only HD a Cloud Giant Drakanthrope has Hit Dice 17d8+3d12 to 17d8+8d12 if it's one of the SRD True Dragons.

So from 20 HD to 25 HD, which is actually within the Hit Dice for a Huge SRD True Dragon, which can range from 19d12 (Young Adult Red) to 32d12 (Ancient Copper).

The problem is we're allowing non-true dragon Drakanthropes such as a Cloud Giant Dragon Turtle Drakanthrope which would have Hit Dice 17d8+12d8, considerably more than a Cloud Giant Gold Weredragon. As in 4 dragon HD more. Plus there are regular dragons of Huge size with way more HD than a Dragon Turtle (the SRD Dragon Turtle is a tad underpowered, which is why I did a Cleon Special). A Cloud Giant Hellfire Werewyrm for example (3E MMII's Hellfire Wire) would have Hit Dice 17d8+23d12. Turning to the CC for an example, a Cloud Giant Swamp Wyrm Drakanthrope would have Hit Dice 17d8+18d12.

I'd like the True Dragon drakanthropes to have HD comparable to or better than the ordinary monster drakanthropes. True Dragons are supposed to be among the toughest creatures alive, so having their less noteworthy kin make tougher pseudo-lycanthropes sits poorly with me.

Unfortunately the Lycanthrope template's approach of "just add the Hit Dice together" inescapably ends up with creatures with excessive HD when a high-HD giant is combined with a high-HD base "beast". Standard lycanthropes can be extremely meaty such as wereelephants and some Dire Animal Lycanthropes (a dire werehippo giant can have ridiculous HD ). Giving them Dragon Hit Dice instead obviously just makes it more extreme. Imagine how many Hit Dice and Hit Points a Mountain Giant Drakanthrope could have!

The smaller sizes seem unlikely to be an issue, since I don't think any official Humanoid type creatures less than Small size. The Tibbit is a Tiny Humanoid when in its house cat alternative form, but that doesn't seem germane since their "default shape" is Small.

As a thought experiment, imagine if a Grig was a Humanoid instead of a Fey: A Grig Drakanthrope with all of the Wyrmling's HD would have Hit Dice ½d6+3d12 at a minimum (for a White Dragon Grig Weredragon) up to ½d6+7d12 for a Silver Weredragon. Contrariwise a Pseudodragon Grig Weredragon would have Hit Dice ½d6+2d12.

The "Half Wyrmling's Hit Dice" scheme for Tiny Drakanthropes would give a Grig "True" Weredragon Hit Dice of ½d6+1d12 to ½d6+4d12 which is more on par with a standard monster dragon of that size such as the aforementioned Pseudodragon.

NA+2, use base dragon's physical ability modifiers in appropriate form.

I think the natural armour and ability modifiers can be discussed separately, to prevent this thread getting even more elaborate.

 

[Cleon]

Unfortunately the Lycanthrope template's approach of "just add the Hit Dice together" inescapably ends up with creatures with excessive HD when a high-HD giant is combined with a high-HD base "beast". Standard lycanthropes can be extremely meaty such as wereelephants and some Dire Animal Lycanthropes (a dire werehippo giant can have ridiculous HD ). Giving them Dragon Hit Dice instead obviously just makes it more extreme. Imagine how many Hit Dice and Hit Points a Mountain Giant Drakanthrope could have!

I guess we should consider the base question as to whether a Weredragon should have higher Hit Dice than a True Dragon of equivalent size?

While a person supernaturally bonded to an animal might be a lot tougher than the base animal à la the SRD Lycanthrope Template, it doesn't mean a Humanoid (or a Giant) merged with a Dragon need be nastier than the base dragon.

Hmm, the original Weredragons were 8 HD man-dragon hybrids, and the text says the hybrid forms are "are halfway between the human and animal sizes". Taking that literally and assuming a "6' base" for a typical humanoid, that suggests a White Dragon (24' base length) version of a Weredragon is about fifteen feet long (24+6 divided by 2). Comparing all ten standard dragons, the Weredragons are all roughly the size of a "Very Young" 2E AD&D Dragon, which have Hit Dice four less than the base HD.

The breakdown is as follows:

White (24' base) => 15' long weredragon, 7 HD very young dragon
Black (30' base) => 18' long weredragon, 8 HD very young dragon
Green (36' base) => 21' long weredragon, 9 HD very young dragon
Blue (42' base) => 24' long weredragon, 10 HD very young dragon
Red (48' base) => 27' long weredragon, 11 HD very young dragon
Copper (30' base) => 18' long weredragon, 8 HD very young dragon
Brass (36' base) => 21' long weredragon, 9 HD very young dragon
Bronze (42' base) => 24' long weredragon, 10 HD very young dragon
Silver (48' base) => 27' long weredragon, 11 HD very young dragon
Gold (54' base) => 30' long weredragon, 12 HD very young dragon

Very Young is the second age category in 2E as it is in 3E. The smallest is "hatchling" that has 2 fewer Hit Dice (so between 5 Hit Dice for a White Hatchling and 10 Hit Dice for a Gold), which means the 8 HD of the Weredragon is closest to the 7½ average HD of the 2E Hatchlings.

Overall I think that supports using the Wyrmling age category as the baseline for our Drakanthropes, at least the human-sized versions.

After some reflection, I'm thinking we should consider making the Were-versions of the dragon significantly weaker than the genuine article rather than significantly stronger like lycanthropes are. The original has lower Hit Dice and less damaging physical attacks (i.e. 1d6 for claws and bite, while even a Hatchling 2E dragon does 1d6+1 to 1d10+1 with its claws and 2d8+1 to 6d6+1 with its bite). Plus they don't have the spell use or % magic resistance of the true dragons.

That'd be hard to combine with a generic template that includes standard monster dragons though.

 

[Cleon]

That'd be hard to combine with a generic template that includes standard monster dragons though.

Of course, the answer's obvious.

Advancement!

The original FR7 Weredragons were a recent phenomenon, so if they have age categories past very young they wouldn't be old enough to display them.

We can have the template apply the Wyrmling age category Hit Dice for all true dragon based Drakanthropes and then have an "Advanced Drakanthropes" subsection which says the beasties can advance by Dragon Hit Dice as well as character levels, and its hybrid and dragon forms get bigger with corresponding increases to NA and physical abilities once its Hit Dice increase to higher age categories (if the base dragon is a normal monster which uses standard advancement it's just unlucky).

That allows for the inclusion of the Gargantuan Wyrm Giant Weredragons with ridiculously high HD while keeping the standard version at low Wyrmling-level additional Hit Dice - maybe few Drakanthropes last longer than their normal humanoid kin so rarely reach the 50+ years a true dragon needs to start maturing.

 

[freyar]

Hmm, I actually meant really to treat the wyrmling true dragon like a base animal for a lycanthrope, so the base creature has to be within a size category. And we could do the same for other dragons without age categories. Or, frankly, if we want really big giant true dragon drakanthropes, we could use older age categories as the base dragon.

Then we can use your advancement idea on top of that. It would limit what types of dragons (true or not) are available for different humanoids or giants, even though they could eventually advance quite high in age catetory.

How does that sound?

 

[Cleon]

Hmm, I actually meant really to treat the wyrmling true dragon like a base animal for a lycanthrope, so the base creature has to be within a size category. And we could do the same for other dragons without age categories. Or, frankly, if we want really big giant true dragon drakanthropes, we could use older age categories as the base dragon.

Then we can use your advancement idea on top of that. It would limit what types of dragons (true or not) are available for different humanoids or giants, even though they could eventually advance quite high in age catetory.

How does that sound?

So you'd have a standard lycanthrope size rule that uses Tiny base animals for "Little" Dragons (Black, Brass, Copper, White) meaning they couldn't use Medium sized humanoids as the base creature? And larger size base creatures would have to use older age category true dragons to meet the size categories?

I don't care for that.

If the Little Dragon "base animal" has to be an older age category for a Medium Humanoid to become a Weredragon, then they'll have higher Hit Dice than Weredragons based on species higher up the dragon pecking order. Small size (Very Young age category) dragons of the "Little Dragons" have minimum Hit Dice of 8 HD (Copper), 7 HD (Black or Brass) and 6 HD (White) and at Medium size (Young age category) they're three HD higher for 11, 10 and 9 HD.

That means the weakest Human Copper Weredragon (+8d12) would have more Hit Dice than a basic Weredragon of any other type except Gold (which have 8d12 HD Wyrmlings) who have the same Hit Dice.

That's not even getting into the other attributes like natural armour, ability scores and so forth.

As previously mentioned, I'm not fond of only using the True Dragon age category size/HD for Large and bigger individuals as it gives them excessive total Hit Dice.

For example, a Cloud Giant plus a Mature Adult Brass Dragon (the youngest age that species becomes Huge) would have 17d8+22d12 Hit Dice, I'd rather that be an exception rather than the standard and have a typical Brass Cloud Giant Weredragon specimen use a Wyrmling as the base dragon for 17d8+4d12 HD, with Very Young (17d8+7d12) or Young (17d8+10d12) being the usual advanced specimens.

 

[Cleon]

So you'd have a standard lycanthrope size rule that uses Tiny base animals for "Little" Dragons (Black, Brass, Copper, White) meaning they couldn't use Medium sized humanoids as the base creature? And larger size base creatures would have to use older age category true dragons to meet the size categories?

'Course I might be misreading your intent. Perhaps if you roughed out a Working Draft for how you'd like the sizes/age categories to work.

 

[freyar]

Well, I did mean that at the time. So then black, white, brass, and copper would only work up to Small humanoid/giant base creatures. Not every base creature needs to be able to become every type of drakanthrope.

That said, I think I prefer just using wyrmling HD (and other modifiers) for any base creature, like you suggest, and working out advancement rules if we want higher age categories for the base dragon. We might want to make different templates for "true drakanthropes" vs those from other dragon critters.

 

[Cleon]

Well, I did mean that at the time. So then black, white, brass, and copper would only work up to Small humanoid/giant base creatures. Not every base creature needs to be able to become every type of drakanthrope.

The original version allowed for standard (i.e. human) Weredragons of any type, which would be impossible if we forbade the "little" true dragons such as Blacks from being the base dragon for a Medium-sized Weredragon.

Also, that would restrict Giants to only being "big" Weredragons like Red or Gold. Do we really want to live in a world that doesn't allow Frostie the Giant White Weredragon?

That said, I think I prefer just using wyrmling HD (and other modifiers) for any base creature, like you suggest, and working out advancement rules if we want higher age categories for the base dragon. We might want to make different templates for "true drakanthropes" vs those from other dragon critters.

Works for me.

I would prefer using a different name for the non true-dragon weredragons. Maybe Weredrake or Vulgar Drakanthrope?

For the proper deal we can call them a Weredragon or True Drakanthrope.

I don't mind which we use as the default name, but am now leaning towards those starting with "Were".

 

[Cleon]

I'll start a separate Weredrake Working Draft as a placeholder.

Will just copy the Weredragon Working Draft to start with. We'll need to rework some of the True Dragon hangovers once we get around to doing the vulgar drakanthrope template.