Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Damage Reduction: The weredrake's hybrid form has any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon.

Come to think of it, FR7's New Lycanthropes have "90% of new lycanthropic species can only be harmed by silver or magical weapons of +1 or greater." Meaning most of them have the standard weapon-resistance of an AD&D Lycanthrope.

I'll change the proposal to:

Damage Reduction (Ex): A weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-silvered magic weapons by 5 points, non-magical silver weapons by 10 points, and all other weapons by 15 points) instead of DR 15/silver and magic or the like. Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

A few weredrakes (no more than one in ten) have damage reduction that is vulnerable to a different material than silver; for example its damage reduction could ignore cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold.

Alternative Option:
Some weredrakes are vulnerable to enchanted weapons and have damage reduction 10/silver or magic instead of DR 10/silver. The proportion of these is as the DM's discretion, from one in ten to 90% or more of the all weredrakes.

A few weredrakes (no more than one in ten) have damage reduction that is vulnerable to a different material than silver; for example its damage reduction could ignore cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold. If the weredrake is also vulnerable to enchanted weapons as per the previous paragraph its damage reduction is modified accordingly (i.e. "DR/gold or magic" instead of "DR/silver or magic").

 

[freyar]

I'm happy with your proposal for the save DCs. But surely you mean to tweak the Breath Weapon (SA) text, not Frightful Presence!

I also like the restriction on the base dragon here. I also tend to think of Orientals and Linnorms as true dragons, but I don't think they are officially.

The SQs you have generally look good. For DR, I like this option

Damage Reduction (Ex): A weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-silvered magic weapons by 5 points, non-magical silver weapons by 10 points, and all other weapons by 15 points) instead of DR 15/silver and magic or the like. Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

A few weredrakes (no more than one in ten) have damage reduction that is vulnerable to a different material than silver; for example its damage reduction could ignore cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold.

Except don't you mean to say "(meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magic silvered weapons by 5 points, non-silvered magic weapons by 10 points, and non-magical non-silvered weapons by 15 points)"? It's DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver, so a silver weapon should bypass the DR 10/silver but be affected by the DR 5/magic.

I could also leave out the 1 in 10 chance that the silver changes to some other material. After all, if the base dragon has DR bypassed by a different material, it would get that in addition to the DR 10/silver.

 

[Cleon]

I'm happy with your proposal for the save DCs. But surely you mean to tweak the Breath Weapon (SA) text, not Frightful Presence!

I also like the restriction on the base dragon here. I also tend to think of Orientals and Linnorms as true dragons, but I don't think they are officially.

Yes, you'd be correct.

The SQs you have generally look good. For DR, I like this option

Except don't you mean to say "(meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magic silvered weapons by 5 points, non-silvered magic weapons by 10 points, and non-magical non-silvered weapons by 15 points)"? It's DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver, so a silver weapon should bypass the DR 10/silver but be affected by the DR 5/magic.

Dang it. I tweaked the wording two or three times to get the DRs were the right way and it STILL ended up wrong.

I could also leave out the 1 in 10 chance that the silver changes to some other material. After all, if the base dragon has DR bypassed by a different material, it would get that in addition to the DR 10/silver.

Offhand I can't recall any dragons that have DR/material. Overall I'd rather keep the 10% chance of non-standard DR of the original creature.

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

 

[Cleon]

How about:

Some weredrakes (maybe one in ten) have non-standard damage reduction, usually DR 10 that's penetrated by a different material than silver such as cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold. A few have DR 10/[material] and magic instead, with the material usually being silver.

 

[Cleon]

Also, upon reflection, the Lycanthrope Template's Organization of "Solitary, pair, or family (3-7)" is maybe a bit iffy. A lot of dragon monsters are not exactly social creatures so it seems wrong having family in the default organization.

Perhaps change Organization to "Solitary or pair, sometimes family (3-4)" or "Same as base dragon or solitary" instead?

 

[freyar]

I like "Same as base dragon or solitary" for the org.

So, for the DR, would this be ok?

Damage Reduction (Ex): A weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magical silver weapons by 5 points, non-silvered magic weapons by 10 points, and all other weapons by 15 points) instead of DR 15/silver and magic or the like. Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

1 in 10 weredrakes do not have DR 10/silver as described above but DR 10 penetrated by a different material, such as cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold (as established by the DM). Even fewer have DR 10/silver and magic (or even another material and magic) instead, though these are quite rare.

 

[Cleon]

I like "Same as base dragon or solitary" for the org.

Works for me.

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

So, for the DR, would this be ok?

Damage Reduction (Ex): A weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magical silver weapons by 5 points, non-silvered magic weapons by 10 points, and all other weapons by 15 points) instead of DR 15/silver and magic or the like. Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

1 in 10 weredrakes do not have DR 10/silver as described above but DR 10 penetrated by a different material, such as cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold (as established by the DM). Even fewer have DR 10/silver and magic (or even another material and magic) instead, though these are quite rare.

Upon reflection the "instead of DR 15/silver and magic or the like" phase is a bit clunky and surplus to requirements. Methinks we can clarify the phrasing a little.

How about:

Damage Reduction (Ex): In 90% of cases, a weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack or combine. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magical silver weapons by 5 points, non-silvered magic weapons by 10 points, and all other weapons by 15 points). Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

One in ten weredrakes do not gain DR 10/silver as described above. These variants usually gain DR 10 penetrated by another material such as cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold when in animal or hybrid form, but a rare few gain DR 10/silver and magic instead (or even another material and magic).

 

[freyar]

Yes, that looks better. But now that I think about it, isn't reducing damage from "other weapons" by 15 points (in the parenthetical) stacking? If the two DRs overlap, wouldn't non-silver, non-magic weapons just get reduced by 10? I don't see a standard rule for this under DR in the SRD.

I think I agree with all the suggested parts where there is red text including Environment on. I guess we should do CR like a lycanthrope though maybe with an extra +1 to CR compared to the lycanthrope. Or do you think we need to adjust CR by dragon size?

 

[Cleon]

Yes, that looks better. But now that I think about it, isn't reducing damage from "other weapons" by 15 points (in the parenthetical) stacking? If the two DRs overlap, wouldn't non-silver, non-magic weapons just get reduced by 10? I don't see a standard rule for this under DR in the SRD.

Hmm… yes upon reflection you're right. Only the highest DR should apply if they don't stack.

So I'll update the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft with:

Damage Reduction (Ex): In 90% of cases, a weredrake in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver plus any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon. Multiple damage reductions granted by the weredrake template never stack or combine. Thus, if the base dragon has DR 5/magic the weredrake has DR 5/magic and DR 10/silver (meaning its damage reduction reduces the damage from non-magical silver weapons by 5 points and non-silvered non-magic weapons by 10 points). Should the base dragon also have damage reduction that ignores silver, the weredrake has DR 10/silver or the base dragon's DR/silver, whichever is higher.

One in ten weredrakes do not gain DR 10/silver as described above. These variants usually gain DR 10 penetrated by another material such as cold iron, obsidian, bronze, jade, electrum or gold when in animal or hybrid form, but a rare few gain DR 10/silver and magic instead (or even another material and magic).

 

[Cleon]

I think I agree with all the suggested parts where there is red text including Environment on. I guess we should do CR like a lycanthrope though maybe with an extra +1 to CR compared to the lycanthrope. Or do you think we need to adjust CR by dragon size?

Okay, I deredded the relevant portions during the previous update.

So you're proposing "By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base dragon: 1 HD or 2 HD, +3; 3 HD to 5 HD, +4; 6 HD to 10 HD, +5; 11 HD to 20 HD, +6; 21 or more HD, +7" then?

Hmm, let's run some examples.

A human warrior 1 werewyvern is CR 11
[dragon HD 7 => wyvern CR 6+5]

A forest gnome druid 3 werepseudodragon is CR 6
[dragon HD 2 => druid CR 3+3]]

A storm giant weredragonturtle is CR 19
[dragon HD 12 => giant's CR 13+6]

Those numbers eyeball as being slightly high, using the standard lycanthrope progression:

Challenge Rating #1: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base dragon: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6.

The normal progression would give Challenge Ratings of CR 10, CR 5 and CR 18 respectively, which seem fine to me. The base mundane dragons tend to have significantly higher Challenge Ratings than normal animals. It's true dragons which tend to be noticeably under-CRd since the designers thought it was an appropriate "feature" to make them overpowered relative to a given level of party. We should watch out for that when we get around to the next Weredragon template.

Alternatively, we could compress the scaling slightly so it becomes +7 CR at 21 or more HD but starts out at +2? Thus:

Challenge Rating #2: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base animal: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 4 HD, +3; 5 HD to 8 HD, +4; 9 HD to 13 HD, +5; 14 HD to 20 HD, +6; 21 or more HD, +7.

I considered scaling it up to +8 CR, something like:

Challenge Rating #3: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base animal: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 4 HD, +3; 5 HD to 7 HD, +4; 8 HD to 11 HD, +5; 12 HD to 15 HD, +6; 16 HD to 20 HD, +7; 21 or more HD, +8.

Or a "starting at 1 HD" version?

Challenge Rating #4: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base animal: 1 HD, +2; 2 HD to 3 HD, +3; 4 HD to 6 HD, +4; 7 HD to 10 HD, +5; 11 HD to 15 HD, +6; 16 HD to 20 HD, +7; 21 or more HD, +8.

Not really decided. CR is an inexact science at the best of times, and templates/advancement are doubly so. It's easy to end up with a ridiculously high or pathetically low CR with a careless build.

 

[Cleon]

Since we'd decided against PC weredragons I think Level Adjustment — is appropriate.

Oh, and the previous:

A human warrior 1 werewyvern is CR 11
[dragon HD 7 => wyvern CR 6+5]

A forest gnome druid 3 werepseudodragon is CR 6
[dragon HD 2 => druid CR 3+3]]

A storm giant weredragonturtle is CR 19
[dragon HD 12 => giant's CR 13+6].

Is tempting me to do all three as sample creatures!

A Storm Giant Dragon Turtle Weredrake would have Strength 55 - a respectable score for a CR 18 or 19 creature!

Hold on though, a Gnome Pseudodragon Weredrake would become WEAKER in dragon/hybrid form since Pseudodragons have Strength 6, giving it a -4 adjustment. That's OK in Dragon form since it's a size smaller but why would the Hybrid form be feeble?

It's an artifact of the Lycanthrope Template not making allowances for size differences. It'd make more sense if the Strength increase by size improvement were incorporated into the template.

i.e. a Gnome Weredrake in Hybrid Pseudodragon form would be Small rather than Tiny so gets another +4 Str which cancels out the -4 from the Tiny dragon's Str 6.

Basically, treat certain modifiers as if the base dragon was adjusted to Medium size. Although that'd prevent the broken stacking of two Large+ Therianthropes. If it worked that way, the Hill Giant Dire Wereboar would "only" have Strength 33 (Hill Giant Str 25 plus Dire Boar lycanthropy +16 [Str 27-10] plus Large to Medium size penalty of -8) instead of the SRD version's Str 41.

Question is, do we want giant weredragons to be overwhelmingly stronger than a normal dragon that size? If not, we should consider the previous adjustment for Strength and maybe some other attributes such as Constitution or Natural Armour.

 

[freyar]

You know, at this point, I'm kind of leaning toward the standard lycanthrope CR modifiers.

I guess we should keep the size modifiers, so the giants aren't worse than the SRD lycanthropse. Or what if we keep the normal size modifies but say they don't count for a smaller base dragon.

 

[Cleon]

You know, at this point, I'm kind of leaning toward the standard lycanthrope CR modifiers.

Works for me!

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

I guess we should keep the size modifiers, so the giants aren't worse than the SRD lycanthropse. Or what if we keep the normal size modifies but say they don't count for a smaller base dragon.

How about we make it either the standard lycanthrope modifier OR the Half-Dragon template modifier, whichever is higher? Possibly adjusted for size?

Let's see, that'd be:

Abilities #1: All weredrakes gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma.

In addition, when in dragon form, a weredrake's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to either +8 Strength and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores -10 or -11, whichever is higher.

A weredrake in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Example: A pseudodragon has Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13; the base dragon's Strength -10 or -11 would provide a –4 adjustment so a weredrake uses +8 instead, resulting in werepseudodragon physical ability score adjustments of Str +8, Dex +4, Con +2 in dragon or hybrid form.

In addition, a weredrake may also gain ability scores increases by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Abilities #2: All weredrakes gain +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma.

In addition, when in dragon form, a weredrake's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to +8* Strength (but see below) and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores -10 or -11, whichever is higher.

A weredrake in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

*If the base dragon is smaller than the base creature, the +8 Strength adjustment is reduced according to the decrease in size following the table in Improving Monsters.

Example: A pseudodragon is a Tiny dragon with Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13; the base dragon's Strength -10 or -11 would provide a –4 adjustment so a weredrake uses +8 instead, resulting in werepseudodragon physical ability score adjustments of Str +8, Dex +4, Con +2 in dragon form if the base creature is Tiny. A Small base creature would have +4 Strength in its Tiny dragon form. The hybrid forms have +8 Strength as they use the larger of the sizes.

In addition, a weredrake may also gain ability scores increases by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

 

[Cleon]

Example: A pseudodragon is a Tiny dragon with Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13; the base dragon's Strength -10 or -11 would provide a –4 adjustment so a weredrake uses +8 instead, resulting in werepseudodragon physical ability score adjustments of Str +8, Dex +4, Con +2 in dragon form if the base creature is Tiny. A Small base creature would have +4 Strength in its Tiny dragon form, a Medium base creature would have +0 Strength. The hybrid forms have +8 Strength as their size matches the base creature.

Hold on, the base creature and base dragon must be within one size of each other, so a werepseudodragon can't be Medium. Better edit that.

 

[freyar]

I think I like Ability proposal #1. That ok with you?

Do you think LA +3 like natural lycanthropes would make sense?

Is that it for the template except flavor?

 

[Cleon]

I think I like Ability proposal #1. That ok with you?

Well I'd prefer making allowances for size differences, but the original Lycanthrope template doesn't bother so I suppose we have precedent!

Come to think of it, the hybrid form can be a different size to the dragon form, which'd have added an additional complication.

Let's use Proposal #1 at least for now. We can always tweak it later if necessary.

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

Do you think LA +3 like natural lycanthropes would make sense?

I'm not keen on the notion of PC Drakanthropes, so how about "—"?

Is that it for the template except flavor?

It needs a sample creature or two.

 

[freyar]

Let's see how the abilities look with the sample creatures and re-evaluate.

LA -- works fine for me. One less thing to worry about!

Well, I meant for the template itself. We don't have a lot to go on from the original monster, though. Any thoughts?

 

[Cleon]

Let's see how the abilities look with the sample creatures and re-evaluate.

LA -- works fine for me. One less thing to worry about!

Works for me.

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

I changed "Cha" to "Charisma" in the Special Attack's "or Cha if this isn't noted" since I thought it scans better.

Well, I meant for the template itself. We don't have a lot to go on from the original monster, though. Any thoughts?

I had a quick read through and couldn't see anything mechanical that seemed to be missing. There's just the description, background and sample creature info we need (plus deciding if we want to tweak the ability score mods depending on size).

 

[freyar]

A human with shimmering skin and narrow, slitlike eyes

?? I'm trying to go for a hint of lizard, but that doesn't seem quite right.

Keep the background simple? Draconic lycanthropes, maybe this time created by arcane experimentation?

 

[Cleon]

A human with shimmering skin and narrow, slitlike eyes

?? I'm trying to go for a hint of lizard, but that doesn't seem quite right.

Well that doesn't read much like a hybrid form, more like a guy wearing contact lenses and covered in glitter.

My god! It's a Twilight vampire!

How about:

A reptilian humanoid of strange and striking appearance.

Note: The appearance of a weredrake's hybrid form can vary immensely, depending on the base dragon and base creature. A storm giant dragon turtle weredrake, for example, looks very different from a storm giant wyvern weredrake. For examples, see Sample Weredrakes.

For the true dragon version we've got up next (eventually!) I would suggest:

This reptilian humanoid is clearly no mere lizardfolk. It looks magnificent and terrifying, from the horns that crown its head to the tip of its sinuously powerful tail. The gaze of its slit-pupilled eyes shows piercing intensity and intelligence.

Note: details of the hybrid form's appearance will match the base dragon, which determines the weredragon's scale color, whether it has wings, gills, fins, or horns (and what those look like) and similar details. For examples, see Sample Weredragons.

Keep the background simple? Draconic lycanthropes, maybe this time created by arcane experimentation?

Weredrakes are a strange draconic equivalent of lycanthropes. Most are born after bizarre magical catastrophes, but a few are created in unrepeatable arcane experiments and accidents. A weredrake can breed true with its own kind, but the likelihood of one finding such a mate is remote. They have low fertility, and unions with mates who aren't weredrakes will usually only produce regular offspring.

Thought about adding a paragraph about reproduction, but it seemed surplus to requirements. Something like.

A weredrake can breed true with its own kind, but the likelihood of one finding a mate is remote. Some can reproduce with either the dragon or non-dragon creatures they are fusions off, or both. The fertility of such unions is very low and the offspring are usually odd-looking but otherwise normal creatures of the other parent's type, but some will have the draconic template and on rare occasions another weredrake will be born.