Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

The working draft says "any humanoid or giant of Medium or Large size."

I'd better change it to "any humanoid" then.

A seawolf is a cool idea.

So, shall I modify it to say that if the base creature has a Swim speed it can use that when in "dire seawolf" form?

The thing is, you're not going to make an untrained DC 25 skill check unless you have a 20+ Wis or Cha and roll very well. Or have a bunch of nutsos helping you turn into a magical homicidal maniac with Aid Another actions. I can go along with the skill checks, but I think we should reduce the DC to the 15 to 20 range somewhere. Or allow an even wider variety of skills. Or both.

Who says I want them to make untrained skill checks unless they're extraordinary individuals à la Siegfried?

As for the "have a bunch of nutsos helping you turn into a magical homicidal maniac with Aid Another actions". Why do you think Loup du Noir's are normally created in "groups" or "gangs"?

Anyhow, I'd consider lowering the DC to 20, but certainly wouldn't countenance 15.

We could add a Will save as an alternative to the skill checks.

Speaking of skill checks, what did you think of the proposal to add Handle Animal?

 

[freyar]

Well, we could restrict it to "human," but I'm ok with "any humanoid." Agreed on the seawolf, assuming there are no other changes.

Other than the org at 1d6, I don't see that they are normally created in groups or gangs. In fact, the original stats tell me "[t]he loup du noir is a solitary creature, but it is possible for several people (for example, all the members of a family or a band of hunters) to have learned the magic necessary for the skin-change." So I don't think we should expect a lot of Aid Another actions. But I could go for DC 20, perhaps with a +2 bonus to the child of a loup du noir that inherits the parent's wolfskin.

And Handle Animal makes sense in a twisted way, so I'm fine with that.

 

[Cleon]

Well, we could restrict it to "human," but I'm ok with "any humanoid." Agreed on the seawolf, assuming there are no other changes.

Other than the org at 1d6, I don't see that they are normally created in groups or gangs. In fact, the original stats tell me "[t]he loup du noir is a solitary creature, but it is possible for several people (for example, all the members of a family or a band of hunters) to have learned the magic necessary for the skin-change." So I don't think we should expect a lot of Aid Another actions. But I could go for DC 20, perhaps with a +2 bonus to the child of a loup du noir that inherits the parent's wolfskin.

And Handle Animal makes sense in a twisted way, so I'm fine with that.

OK, let's make it DC 20 then.

So, that would give us:

Magic Wolfskin (Su): All loups du noir possess an enchanted wolfskin which allows them to assume wolf form (see Alternate Form, above). While in wolf form, the wolfskin grants the loup du noir DR 10/silver or good, immunity to charms and compulsions, and a +4 resistance bonus on saves vs mind-affecting affects.

If a loup du noir loses its magic wolfskin, it cannot take wolf form until it replaces the wolfskin. This requires the ritual killing of a canine of at least Large size in single combat, followed by skinning the victim. Alternately, the skinless loup du noir can murder another loup du noir and steal their wolfskin.

If a loup do noir dies, a humanoid in possession of its magic wolfskin can become a loup du noir by performing a profane ceremony with the skin. This requires a successful DC 20 check against Handle Animal, Knowledge (arcana), Survival, or Use Magic Device.

 

[Cleon]

I'd better change it to "any humanoid" then.

So, shall I modify it to say that if the base creature has a Swim speed it can use that when in "dire seawolf" form?

I changed the Loup du Noir Working Draft to "any humanoid" and "Sea Wolf".

 

[freyar]

The wolfskin looks good to me. I'd say that's ready for an update.

I don't think I'd boost the Swim speed to 50 ft if the base creature's is less. I'd just say that they get the base creature's swim speed.

Imp Grab: "its own size or smaller" works for me.

For consistency with lycanthropes and dire lycanthropes, I think I'd go with low-light vision in place of darkvision. Was there a particular reason you wanted darkvisision?

 

[Cleon]

The wolfskin looks good to me. I'd say that's ready for an update.

Updating the Loup du Noir Working Draft.

I don't think I'd boost the Swim speed to 50 ft if the base creature's is less. I'd just say that they get the base creature's swim speed.

I thought about making it a minimum of 40 ft. Swim, because that's the Swim speed of the Seal and the Seawolf in Stormwrack, but I'd rather not have it be a sluggish swimmer in Loup du Mer form. It just doesn't seem right.

Imp Grab: "its own size or smaller" works for me.

Well, real-life wolves are Medium and they sometimes wrestle bison, which are Large.

I guess they must be using normal grappling rules, since wolves don't have Improved Grab.

For consistency with lycanthropes and dire lycanthropes, I think I'd go with low-light vision in place of darkvision. Was there a particular reason you wanted darkvisision?

I thought there had to be some reason they were called "Wolves of the Black" and seeing in the dark seemed a good match.

 

[freyar]

How about a 10 ft boost over the base creature swim speed?

Nothing says they couldn't use grapple rules for something larger...

OK, I'll go for darkvision. It won't hurt to distinguish it a bit more from normal lycanthropes.

Organization: Solitary, pair, family (1-3 loups du noir plus 0-4 humanoid children plus 0-4 wolfwere children) ??

 

[Cleon]

How about a 10 ft boost over the base creature swim speed?

I'd rather give it a fixed Swim speed in "Seawolf" form. It's not like it has the fins and/or flukes that it swims with in its aquatic humanoid form.

Nothing says they couldn't use grapple rules for something larger...

Well if I remember the standard grappling rules correctly, a creature can grapple opponents up to 1 size larger than themselves. So a Medium Wolf can grapple a Large Horse or Bison, but not a Huge Elephant.

OK, I'll go for darkvision. It won't hurt to distinguish it a bit more from normal lycanthropes.

Fine by me. 90 feet or 60 feet?

Organization: Solitary, pair, family (1-3 loups du noir plus 0-4 humanoid children plus 0-4 wolfwere children) ??

The original monster has No. Appearing 1-6, so a "family" should probably be 3-6 loups.

I'm tempted to add a "pack" which includes a few dire wolves, worgs, or werewolves.

That reminds me, how about one of the folllowing for the reproduction:

Version One
A Loup du Noir is born if the mother is Human or a Loup in human form.
A Wolfwere is born if the mother is a Wolf or a Loup in wolf form.

Version Two
Loup + Human produces another Loup du Noir.
Loup + Wolf produces a Wolfwere.

Version One seems to be the closest to the original intent.

Hmm, come to think of it there's no mention of Loup do Noirs associating with (let alone mating with) normal wolves, only their own kind and wolfweres, so maybe it should be:

Version Three
A Loup du Noir is born if the mother is Human or a Loup in human form.
A Wolfwere is born if the mother is a Loup in wolf form.

 

[freyar]

Frankly, I'd rather just stick to the base humanoid's swim speed for the seawolf, but if you want a fixed swim speed, how about 30 ft? 40 ft tops.

Improved grab usually works on up to one size smaller, though, vs grapple, where you can possibly successfully start a grapple vs a critter up to one size larger than you and can grapple any size critter (if they start the grapple).

Do wolf-sized animals ever hunt elephants?

I figured the 1-6 should included kids who hadn't become lycanthropes yet. But a family with 1-6 loups plus kids is getting to be more of a clan. Adding a pack would be ok.

I'll agree to version 3, although it's a bit weird. It's not like the mother's going to keep one form during the whole pregnancy. So is it the mother's form at birth or conception?

 

[Cleon]

Frankly, I'd rather just stick to the base humanoid's swim speed for the seawolf, but if you want a fixed swim speed, how about 30 ft? 40 ft tops.

I'd be OK with Swim 40 ft., since that's the same as a Seal.

Improved grab usually works on up to one size smaller, though, vs grapple, where you can possibly successfully start a grapple vs a critter up to one size larger than you and can grapple any size critter (if they start the grapple).

Yes, that's just the default rule of course. Plenty of critters can Improved Grab opponents beyond those scales, and there are probably a few that can Grapple outside those limits too.

Do wolf-sized animals ever hunt elephants?

Not if they've got any sense. Unless they have AK 47s.

I figured the 1-6 should included kids who hadn't become lycanthropes yet. But a family with 1-6 loups plus kids is getting to be more of a clan. Adding a pack would be ok.

The No Appearing entry in an AD&D monster's listing does not usually include kids and other noncombatants, so I suspect you figured incorrectly.

I'll agree to version 3, although it's a bit weird. It's not like the mother's going to keep one form during the whole pregnancy. So is it the mother's form at birth or conception?

It seems to be at birth, which is even odder than at conception.

Since Loup du Noir's choose to turn into wolves, it's up to Mum whether the kid's a Loup or a Wolfwere!