Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Sorry, I may have been getting confused about our proposal before. Or else I am now.

Yeah, it seems we were talking at cross-purposes.

I am pretty happy with what you have in post 1397. But I still think I'd prefer the base dragon (including appropriate age category) to be within one size category of the base creature. I'm not too worried about wyrmling vs very young as long as we deal with CR appropriately. And there are still base dragons that work for all the SRD humanoids and giants. I'm not sure how to work the numbers quite otherwise.

Urm, but post #1397 is nothing like that.

If I'm understanding you rightly, that would require us to drop the "base dragon must be a LA category" idea and go back to the "all age categories are possible" approach, but with the additional wrinkle that the age category must be within a size step of the base creature.

I don't care for that much.

Consider a Red Weredragon. If it were a Halfing (Small) it could ONLY be a Wyrmling (Medium) under that rule, but if it were a Cloud Giant (Huge) it could be any age from Very Young (Large) up to Wyrm (Gargantuan), with only Great Wyrm (Colossal) being unavailable.

Contrariwise, a Copper Weredragon could range from Wyrmling (Tiny) to Juvenile (Medium) as a Halfling and Young Adult (Large) to Great Wyrm (Gargantuan) as a Cloud Giant.

A Medium sized base creature like a human or elf could be Wyrmling (Medium) to Juvenile (Large) as a Red Dragon and Very Young (Small) to Adult (Large) as a Copper Dragon.

Youngest:
Halfling Wyrmling Red Weredragon: +7 HD, +6 Str, +4 Con
Halfling Wyrmling Copper Weredragon: +5 HD, +0 Str, +2 Con
Human Wyrmling Red Weredragon: +7 HD, +6 Str, +4 Con
Human Very Young Copper Weredragon: +8 HD, +2 Str, +2 Con
Cloud Giant Very Young Red Weredragon: +10 HD, +10 Str, +6 Con
Cloud Giant Young Adult Copper Weredragon: +17 HD, +8 Str, +6 Con

Oldest:
Halfling Wyrmling Red Weredragon: +7 HD, +6 Str, +4 Con
Halfling Juvenile Copper Weredragon: +14 HD, +6 Str, +4 Con
Human Juvenile Red Weredragon: +16 HD, +18 Str, +8 Con
Human Adult Copper Weredragon: +20 HD, +12 Str, +8 Con
Cloud Giant Wyrm Red Weredragon: +37 HD, +30 Str, +20 Con
Cloud Giant Great Wyrm Copper Weredragon: +38 HD, +26 Str, +16 Con

Hmm, that introduces an additional wrinkle that the smaller dragons may produce stronger weredragons since they have to be in older age categories. A Small base creature like the aforementioned Halfling is a lot tougher as a Juvenile Copper Weredragon than a Wyrmling Red Weredragon after all.

If we are going to go for the "all age categories" option, I would much rather let the Halfling Weredragon go all the way up to Great Wyrm than nerf its upper limit. My mental model is that weredragons might get a lot more "dragoney" as they grow older, so their humanoid forms become an increasingly trivial part of their nature.

If we keep the current "stay within LA limits" limits, I would rather keep the "within a size of any age of the base dragon" rule, like so:

Creating a Weredragon​

​

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype plus any subtypes possessed by the base dragon.​

​

The base creature must be within one size category the base dragon can grow to, including sizes of age categories without Level Adjustments. For example, a weredragon with the Medium sized juvenile copper dragon as its base dragon can be from Diminutive to Colossal in size, ranging from one size smaller than the Tiny copper wyrmling up to one size bigger than a Gargantuan wyrm or great wyrm copper dragon.​

 

[freyar]

Actually, I meant that the base dragon (meaning type and age category) should both have a Level Adjustment and be within one size category of the base creature. It just means that not every type of true dragon is available for every base creature. Otherwise, don't the ability adjustments get wonky?

But I guess you think that's too restrictive. Do I understand correctly?

 

[Cleon]

Actually, I meant that the base dragon (meaning type and age category) should both have a Level Adjustment and be within one size category of the base creature. It just means that not every type of true dragon is available for every base creature. Otherwise, don't the ability adjustments get wonky?

But I guess you think that's too restrictive. Do I understand correctly?

You would be correct.

That would prevent a lot of standard dragon types from being Weredragons of the many PC races, since a good many Wyrmlings are Tiny and numerous PC races are Medium.

Plus, if we include Giants as Weredragon base creatures, a lot of the base dragons would be pretty powerful or unavailable because they don't have LAs.

 

[freyar]

In that case, let's just forget about size requirements. So we can let the base dragon be any true dragon age category with an LA. Then use the standard lycanthrope rule of adding dragon HD and physical ability scores to dragon and hybrid forms, I guess. Still want the usual +2 Wis or more mental adjustments?

 

[Cleon]

In that case, let's just forget about size requirements.

Works for me.

So we can let the base dragon be any true dragon age category with an LA. Then use the standard lycanthrope rule of adding dragon HD and physical ability scores to dragon and hybrid forms, I guess. Still want the usual +2 Wis or more mental adjustments?

I'd give them a minimum of Int +2 and Cha +2 like a Half-Dragon plus +2 Wis like a Lycanthrope.

The Hybrid and Dragon form's ability scores can use the same rules as we made for the Weredrake, which are a tweaked version of standard lycanthrope.

 

[freyar]

Using the same ability rules as the weredrake is fine by me, but I thought you were concerned about the math for extreme examples. Are you happy with that?

 

[Cleon]

Using the same ability rules as the weredrake is fine by me, but I thought you were concerned about the math for extreme examples. Are you happy with that?

I'm not bothered if we limit it to LA only age categories. it was ages above Juvenile that could lead to excessive ability scores.

With LA as a cap, the toughest we have are Young Red or Young Gold Weredragons with Str +14 and Con +6 which is quite acceptable.

We were going to apply a minimum of +8 Str, +2 Con in Dragon and Hybrid form so it's at least as good as the Half-Dragon template. Only the above Young Red & Golds will exceed the Strength +8 minimum, but many age categories will get Constitution adjustments better than the minimum of +2.

The question is, should we allow "score minus 10" adjustments for the mental ability scores (with a +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha minimum based on the Half Dragon) or just use the Half Dragon modifiers?

If we allowed that it would make a difference with the following Weredragons:

Juvenile Green would be +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
Wyrmling or Very Young Bronze would be +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
Young Bronze would be +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
Young or Juvenile Copper would be +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha​

Wyrmling Gold would be +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha​

Very Young and Young Gold would be +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha​

Wyrmling and Very Young Silver would be +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha​

Young Silver would be +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha​

​

…with all the other Weredragons ages being +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.​

Hmm, not sure about it.

It makes the Metallic Weredragons smarter than the Chromatics much like the true dragons are.

The way Juvenile Green Weredragons would be more intelligent than any other Chromatic Weredragon is a bit of a quirk, but then Greens are supposed to be particularly cunning so I don't mind that too much.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cleon]

I should really update the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft with the little we've decided on.

EDIT: Okay, I've blued the text I think we're OK with and greened the placeholder rough draft text in the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

Since we seem to be simplifying this Template a good deal I suspect we can just port over quite a bit from the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft..

For the LA limit wording, would you be OK editing Creating a Weredragon to replace.

The weredragon takes on the characteristics of some type of creature of the dragon type (referred to hereafter as the base dragon). The base dragon must be a true dragon, drakanthropes based on normal monster dragons such as dragon turtles or wyverns use the Weredrake template instead.​

With.

The weredragon takes on the characteristics of some type of creature of the dragon type (referred to hereafter as the base dragon). The base dragon must be a true dragon whose age category has a Level Adjustment. Drakanthropes based on normal monster dragons such as dragon turtles or wyverns use the Weredrake template instead.​

For Size and Type I'm wondering about using:

The base creature must have a size within one size category of the true dragon's complete size range. For example, copper dragons range from Tiny wyrmlings to Gargantuan great wyrms, so the base creature of a copper weredragon can range from Diminutive to Colossal in size.​

That's the same mechanics as the current draft but the wording is a lot cleaner.

I'm also wondering if we should simply make the Dragon Form the same size as the Hybrid Form so a giant weredragon doesn't turn into a Tiny wyrmling dragon, but will always be the same size or bigger than its base creature form.

 

[freyar]

I can go along with what you have for the physical abilities. I prefer "score -10" for the mental abilities. It's probably reasonable to make these somewhat more powerful than half-dragons.

I'm pretty happy with what you have for the suggested blue text, though I am unsure about one thing. What about replacing "a true dragon whose age category has a Level Adjustment" with "a creature of dragon type with age categories in an age category with a Level Adjustment"? I keep having a vague memory of other dragon critters with age categories, so this would allow them. Even otherwise, I think it might be good to clarify "The base dragon must be a true dragon of an age category with a Level Adjustment." Otherwise, it could be construed to be any age category, so long as the base dragon has some age category with an LA. Maybe I'm making this too complicated, though.

What if we let the dragon form take any size from the base dragon size to the hybrid form size? Just for kicks.

 

[Cleon]

I can go along with what you have for the physical abilities. I prefer "score -10" for the mental abilities. It's probably reasonable to make these somewhat more powerful than half-dragons.

Agreed, so we're keeping:

Abilities: A weredragon's mental ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11 or +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, whichever is higher.​

I'm pretty happy with what you have for the suggested blue text, though I am unsure about one thing. What about replacing "a true dragon whose age category has a Level Adjustment" with "a creature of dragon type with age categories in an age category with a Level Adjustment"? I keep having a vague memory of other dragon critters with age categories, so this would allow them. Even otherwise, I think it might be good to clarify "The base dragon must be a true dragon of an age category with a Level Adjustment." Otherwise, it could be construed to be any age category, so long as the base dragon has some age category with an LA. Maybe I'm making this too complicated, though.

Like this?:

The weredragon takes on the characteristics of some type of true dragon (a creature of the dragon type with age categories), referred to hereafter as the base dragon. The base dragon must belong to an age category with a Level Adjustment. A true dragon that lacks age categories with Level Adjustments cannot become a weredragon. Drakanthropes based on normal monster dragons such as dragon turtles or wyverns use the Weredrake template instead.​

What if we let the dragon form take any size from the base dragon size to the hybrid form size? Just for kicks.

I'm game if you are.

We'll need to tweak the Size and Type section and Abilities.

 

[freyar]

Yes on those mental ability scores. I think the rest of the red text for ability scores is ok. Do you agree?

Yes on the base dragon language.

Please go ahead and tweak on the size and type.

Let's go with the red text you have for Skills and Feats.

 

[Cleon]

Yes on those mental ability scores. I think the rest of the red text for ability scores is ok. Do you agree?

Yes on the base dragon language.

Please go ahead and tweak on the size and type.

Let's go with the red text you have for Skills and Feats.

Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

I went for the following for Size and Type:

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype plus any subtypes possessed by the base dragon.

The base dragon can be any true dragon that can reach a size within one size category of the base creature. For example, a copper dragon can grow from a Tiny wyrmling to a Gargantuan wyrm or great wyrm, so the base creature of a copper weredragon can range from Diminutive to Colossal in size (i.e. from one size smaller than Tiny up to one size bigger than Gargantuan).

In dragon form, a weredragon can be the size of the base creature, the base dragon, or any size between the two, but defaults to whichever size is bigger.

Examples: a human wyrmling copper weredragon's dragon form is normally Medium size (the size of a human, its base creature) but can shrink to Tiny size (the size of a wyrmling copper dragon, its base dragon) or become Small (the size between Tiny and Medium). A gnome young gold weredragon's dragon form is normally Large (the size of a young gold dragon) but can shrink to Small (the size of a gnome) or become Medium (its intermediary size).

Weredragons can adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base dragon. A weredragon's hybrid form can assume the same sizes as its dragon form.

Some weredragons are unable to shapechange into dragon form and are only able to adopt their base creature and hybrid forms.

A weredragon uses either the base creature or the base dragon's statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here.​

 

[Cleon]

Okay, there's a couple of things to discuss.

Firstly, I assumed it could assume a hybrid form in the same ranges as its dragon form rather than the previous "A weredragon's hybrid form is the same size as the base creature or the base dragon, whichever is larger."

Are you OK with that?

Second, we need to figure out how the new range of dragon/hybrid form sizes affects its Abilities.

It seems easier figuring out how we'd like the numbers to work and reverse-design the rule from there.

Let's consider three weredragons: the example creatures of a human wyrmling copper weredragon and gnome young gold weredragon, plus a storm giant wyrmling silver weredragon as an extreme case.

Human Wyrmling Copper Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Human Warrior Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Wyrmling Copper Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Medium Humanoid Form: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Tiny Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10

Gnome Young Gold Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Gnome Humanoid Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Young Gold Stats: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Small Humanoid Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14

Storm Giant Wyrmling Silver Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Storm Giant Stats: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15
Wyrmling Silver Stats: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Huge Giant Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 19
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 19
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 19
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 19
Huge Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 19

EDIT: No, let's make it so the Storm Giant so it goes all the way down to Tiny. Say, Copper Wyrmling for the Giant Weredragon and a Brass Wyrmling for the Human Weredragon. Have updated the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft so the example Human Weredragon is Brass:

Human Wyrmling Brass Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Human Warrior Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Wyrmling Brass Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Medium Humanoid Form: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Tiny Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10

Storm Giant Wyrmling Copper Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Storm Giant Stats: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15
Wyrmling Copper Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Huge Giant Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Tiny Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Huge Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17

Contrariwise, a more extreme edge case would use a Young Gold:

Storm Giant Young Gold Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Storm Giant Stats: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15
Young Gold Stats: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Huge Giant Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21
Huge Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str ##, Dex ##, Con ##, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21

 

[Cleon]

Okay, the easiest approach is to use the usual ability -10/11 rule for the default size (the largest size it can assume) and then have the smaller sizes apply standard modifiers for size category changes.

Well, not entirely standard. We decided not to use the normal Dexterity adjustments for size since the SRD True Dragons don't alter their Dex scores as they age.

Let's see how that would work:

Human Wyrmling Brass Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Human Warrior Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Wyrmling Brass Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Medium Humanoid Form: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Tiny Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10

Gnome Young Gold Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Gnome Humanoid Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Young Gold Stats: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Small Humanoid Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14

Storm Giant Wyrmling Copper Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Storm Giant Stats: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15
Wyrmling Copper Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Huge Giant Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Tiny Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 23, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Small Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 27, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Medium Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 31, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 21, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17
Huge Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 47, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 17

Storm Giant Young Gold Weredragon
Base Stats: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Storm Giant Stats: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15
Young Gold Stats: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Huge Giant Form: Str 39, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21
Large Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 45, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21
Huge Dragon/Hybrid Form: Str 53, Dex 14, Con 29, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 21​

Hmm, those numbers look more-or-less OK to me.

The Tiny Storm Giant Copper Weredragon is ridiculously strong for its size, but that might be a feature more than a bug.

I'd be inclined to drop the Constitution adjustments for size, since it'd be fiddly having to adjust the weredragon's Fort saving throw as it shrinks or grows.