Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk
- Thread starter Shade
- Start date
Cleon
Hero
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I believe we were still sorting out how to deal with ability adjustments, sizes, etc. If I've picked the right posts (#1294 to 1299 or thereabouts), the latest proposal is to use wyrmling stats to create the weredragon but allow advancement either by character level or additional true dragon HD, which can also lead to hybrid/dragon form size increases, etc.
Cleon
Hero
Yes, I remember that, but we'd use the racial modifiers of the Half-Dragon template as a minimum (i.e. Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2).
Repurposing the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft to that would be:
Abilities: All weredragons gain +2 to Intelligence, +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma.
In addition, when in hybrid form, a weredragon's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to either +8 Strength and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11, whichever is higher.
A weredragon in dragon form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount unless the dragon form is smaller than the hybrid form, in which case the hybrid form's Strength adjustment is reduced according to the Table: Changes to Statistics by Size.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I like that, let's do it.
Let's settle on attacks next, I guess. Dragon form has the attacks of the base dragon with appropriate age category for the true dragon HD. Hybrid has bite and claw --- we could add others, but I guess that depends on how we go with size. I see the blue text has hybrid the large of the base critter/base dragon sizes, but I think I prefer base creature size. Would that be ok? Hybrid should have the breath weapon, and I'd be willing to go more than once per day (seems like it should be more than a half-dragon).
Let's settle on attacks next, I guess. Dragon form has the attacks of the base dragon with appropriate age category for the true dragon HD. Hybrid has bite and claw --- we could add others, but I guess that depends on how we go with size. I see the blue text has hybrid the large of the base critter/base dragon sizes, but I think I prefer base creature size. Would that be ok? Hybrid should have the breath weapon, and I'd be willing to go more than once per day (seems like it should be more than a half-dragon).
Cleon
Hero
Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.
We need to modify the Changes to Statistics by Size Table since the true drakanthrope template allows for a very wide range of sizes in Dragon Form.
i.e. Tiny Base Dragon (brass wrymling) and Colossal base creature (mountain giant) for a brass mountain giant weredragon.
I would also allow for the possibility of particularly powerful weredragons whose base dragon stats and abilities are better than Wyrmling, such as a Young Adult Fire Giant weredragon or whatever.
We could do a matrix of sizes (i.e. hybrid form's size in column, dragon form's size in rows or vice versa) or just use size changes; i.e. STR –2 or –4 if one size smaller, –4 or –8 if two sizes and then add another –8 for each additional size change.
It seems more prudent to figure out some extreme cases and back-engineer from there.
So we need to decide on what ability scores are reasonable for the ridiculous extremities like a great wyrm gnome weredragon or wyrmling mountain giant weredragon and figure out a formula or matrix to achieve them.
Let's see, the SRD examples are:
Smaller dragons like the Black, Brass, Copper or White, which start out as Tiny wyrmlings with Strength 11 and go up to Gargantuan great wyrms with Strength 37.
Big dragons like the Red or Gold which start out as Medium wyrmlings with Strength 17 and go up to Colossal great wyrms with Strength 45 or 47.
I vaguely recall there being some extraplanar or spelljammer true dragons which bigger and/or stronger, starting out as Large sized wyrmlings or Medium wyrmlings with Strength of 19 or more but might be misremembering or thinking of non-WotC 3E dragons.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
No, no, wait a moment. We just agreed to use the wyrmling as the base dragon (and that's what we were thinking before). So no need for any complicated tables. If the wyrmling and base creature are more than one step apart on the Changes to Statistics by Size table (which looks like the standard SRD one, right?), just use all the adjustments for all the size steps to get the dragon form Str (or else use the base dragon wyrmling's Str, whichever is larger).
To get a larger dragon form, we agreed to allow advancement by dragon HD. With enough dragon HD, the dragon form goes up in age category and often size, so the Str (and other ability) adjustments change but still follow the same table if necessary. Does that work?
Though I wouldn't mind having a way to boost mental stats with dragon HD faster than usual ability boosts.
Cleon
Hero
I think we're both on the same page with this.
Let's write out the mechanics and make sure.
I'm still a bit leery as to how the ability modifiers of an ancient dragon and a giant will stack up, but then that's always a problem with the 3E approach to Lycanthropes.
What, so a frost giant Great Wyrm White Weredragon would get the base dragon +8 INT, WIS, CHA but less than its +26 STR, +18 CON?
Isn't that what I was worrying about above!?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Sounds good on the physical ability scores. I await your write up! 
At the moment, we have "All weredragons gain +2 to Intelligence, +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma." On one hand, it makes sense that perhaps the lycanthropy only changes physical abilities based on the age category of the base dragon. On the other, why not get more in the way of mental abilities, too? In that case, yeah, why not the full base dragon adjustment?
At the moment, we have "All weredragons gain +2 to Intelligence, +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma." On one hand, it makes sense that perhaps the lycanthropy only changes physical abilities based on the age category of the base dragon. On the other, why not get more in the way of mental abilities, too? In that case, yeah, why not the full base dragon adjustment?
Cleon
Hero
Sounds good on the physical ability scores. I await your write up!
Let's see…
Abilities: A weredragon's mental ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11 or +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, whichever is higher.
When it assumes dragon form, a weredragon's physical ability scores also improve. The base adjustments are equal to the base dragon's wyrmling ability scores –10 or –11 plus, if the dragon form is larger than the base creature, the weredragon's Strength and Constitution increase according to the Table: Changes to Statistics by Size. If the ability improvement would be less than +8 Strength and +2 Constitution, the weredragon gains those adjustments instead. A weredragon in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.
Table: Changes to Statistics by Size
Base Creature Size | Size of Dragon & Hybrid Form | Strength | Constitution |
|---|---|---|---|
| Fine | Diminutive | Same | Same |
| Diminutive | Tiny | +2 | Same |
| Tiny | Small | +4 | +2 |
| Small | Medium | +4 | +4 |
| Medium | Large | +8 | +4 |
| Large | Huge | +8 | +4 |
| Huge | Gargantuan | +8 | +4 |
| Gargantuan | Colossal | +8 | +4 |
In addition, a weredragon may also gain ability scores increases by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.
Cleon
Hero
If we just used that table the Weredragon would get a Dexterity and natural armour adjustment from it too, while we're just applying the Strength- and Constitution adjustments.
I'd like to run a couple of thought-experiments for sample humanoid and giant weredragons before deciding that.
A size-based progression would likely end up with the larger sizes having WAY lower ACs than the equivalent sized True Dragon unless we artificially inflate the size adjustment to AC, but that risks creating the reverse problem of making the little weredragons have too high an AC.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Hmmm, we could say just to use the Con and Str adjustments from the SRD table to save room. But ok.
Actually, before moving on to AC/NA: I'm not clear what the above text means for ability scores when the weredragon has advanced by dragon HD to a new age category. Just the ability bonus from adding HD, or do we also adjust again on that table for the new size? We should be clear.
Actually, before moving on to AC/NA: I'm not clear what the above text means for ability scores when the weredragon has advanced by dragon HD to a new age category. Just the ability bonus from adding HD, or do we also adjust again on that table for the new size? We should be clear.
Cleon
Hero
Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.
Well that's one reason I wanted to run some test cases before we sign off on this section.
The current rough draft just copies the Lycanthrope template's "may also gain ability scores increases by virtue of its extra Hit Dice".
If we have ability scores based on age categories we'll want to drop that, although I still think we might want to add some sort of size adjustment.
As mentioned previously, my main worry is Giant Weredragons would get extreme stats if we used the standard stat -10/-11 approach:
Human* Wyrmling Red Weredragon: Str 21**, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Human* Adult Red Weredragon: Str 24, Dex 11, Con 22, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 14
Human* Great Wyrm Red Weredragon: Str 47, Dex 11, Con 32, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 24
Fire Giant Wyrmling Red Weredragon: Str 39**, Dex 9, Con 27, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 13
Fire Giant Adult Red Weredragon: Str 53, Dex 9, Con 31, Int 16, Wis 23, Cha 17
Fire Giant Great Wyrm Red Weredragon: Str 65, Dex 9, Con 41, Int 26, Wis 31, Cha 27
*Uses standard Human Warrior base abilities of Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
*Uses Weredragon's minimum +8 Strength adjustment instead of Wyrmling Red Dragon's +6 adjustment.
Hmm, perhaps we could use the Lycanthrope template's -10/11 approach but place a cap on the age category equal derived from the base dragon's Level Adjustment?
For example, a Black Dragon has Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +3; very young +3; young +3; juvenile +4; others — meaning a Black Dragon PC cannot advance beyond Juvenile.
So perhaps a Black Weredragon's base dragon can only go up to Juvenile as well. A Juvenile Black Dragon is Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10, giving the Drakanthrope ability modifiers of Str +8*, Dex +0, Don +4, Int +2*, Wis +2*, Cha +2* allowing for the Weredragon template's minimums.
Compariwise, a Gold Dragon has LA Wyrmling +4; very young +5; young +6; others — and a Young Gold Dragon is Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16, so a Gold Weredragon would top off at Str +14, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6 if we adopt that approach.
Similar Threads
