Spell Chains

Spatzimaus

First Post
I'm trying to figure out something here, and could use some input. It's for more of a homebrew system of sorts, but we're trying to integrate into 3E.

The Mind's Eye introduced the concept of Power Chains, where you can upgrade along a chain. It always seemed backwards to me and my friends that spellcasters didn't learn chains; a Sorcerer who learned Teleport often wouldn't bother learning Teleport Without Error, even though it seems natural that it'd be his next goal. How many conjurers take all nine Summon Monster spells? It just seems wrong that a specialist would skip an intermediate spell out of some sort of metagame thinking.

So, we wanted to create an "alien" system of magic, where all spells in a chain were actually just variations of a single spell, and you could memorize the basic "spell" at any level to get different benefits. You'd learn a few basic spells (domains), and stick with their variations for your entire career. It's your specialty. Basically, you'd take each Domain and convert it into a single "spell" to get what I'm thinking of. Some domains obviously wouldn't work for this, and some new ones would need to be added, of course. But the point is, someone who knows how to Dimension Door should also know Blink, Teleport, Teleport w/o Error, and so on.

The question is, how would I balance it for classes that don't know all spells? How many of these chains should one caster learn, and how many spells per day would be appropriate? Is it possible to add this sort of thing to Sorcerers and such without ruining balance? (Obviously it's better than 1 known spell but not as good as 9 different ones). If I replaced the Sorcerer's entire "known" list with, say, 1 chain at level 1 and one at every even level, would that be enough?

Any thoughts?
 

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I see your dilemma with regards to sorcerors, but not necessarily with wizards. A wizard may very well pen teleport and greater teleport as well as at least 5 or 6 summon monster spells. A sorceror (or a bard) doesnt have the luxury of an infinite amount of space as you pointed out.

I think a "domain" type idea could work.

For instance, a time chain:

1 Alarm - Allows you to get a sense for when things happen
2 Stop (Hold Person) - Shows the power of freezing one person in time.
3 Haste and Slow - Manipulate time for a number of people
4 Age (Enervation) - Age one target, weakening it.
5 Greater Stop (Hold Monster) and Permanency - The power of making anything stop in its tracks.
6 Contingency - Prepare for things in the future
7 Lesser Foresight* - Peering into the future
8
9 Temporal Stasis and Time Stop - The final bending of time, showing mastery

*- As Foresight but 1 min/level.


Sorry, couldnt find one for 8th level. Anyway, I like the idea.

Technik
 

There is another magic system out there..


It's called the elements of magic and I'm currently using it IMC, I love it.. it eliminates the spellcasting classes and replaces them with one. the Mage I mean how come a cleric gets a d8 anyway?? And it uses the chain system as well for example you don't have to take fireball and flaming sphere you just take evoke area fire and you can do just about anything you want with fire.. Also all spellcasting is spontaneous thus you don't have to prepare anything you can cast anything as long as you have enough Magic points, sort of like mana from Magic The Gathering TCG. OH and by the way you now need all of your abilities INT CHA and WIS no ditch ability. Anyway I think it's great.

Again that The Elements of Magic by Matt Blakely I think it's available online via PDF for a few bucks don't remember where though..
 


rtricher said:
And it uses the chain system as well for example you don't have to take fireball and flaming sphere you just take evoke area fire and you can do just about anything you want with fire.

I mentioned that this came up because we're trying to integrate parts of a homebrew into 3E classes. In that homebrew that's almost exactly how things already work; the Channeler class simply learns "Fire" and can summon or shape it however he wants, spontaneously. Bolts, Wall, Ball, Ring, control, whatever, it's all one element.
Instead of a Power Point or Magic Point system, though, we use a Drain system, where attempting to cast a spell does an amount of damage to the caster (usually 2*X lethal, which he can then use his Channeling skill to convert to subdual and then eliminate entirely). The beauty of this is that a level 4 caster can TRY casting a 5th-level spell effect, but the drain could almost kill him AND he'll probably fail the Channeling skill check to reduce it. Between combats you can heal yourself up (if you know Life magic), but in the thick of things you won't be throwing level 9 spells around nonstop.

But that's not the point. I'm just using that sort of system as inspiration, trying to fit these multi-level spell effects into the stock 3E classes, if it's possible. I want there to be an incentive for someone to know all nine Summon Monster spells, or every spell with "Invisibility" in the title.
The question was, how do you balance this? How many "known" spells should it cost a Sorcerer and of what level?
 

Well if you use a house rule that Seasong came up with:

"Sorceror starts play knowing 6 spells and every level gains 2 new spells of his/her choosing."

Then I would come up with a chain that contains anywhere from 9 to 20 spells and penalize 1 spell known every level-up.

For instance, using the Time Chain above:

11 spells

1st: 5 spells known
4th: 1 spell known
6th: 0 spells known
8th: 1 spell known
10th: 0 spells known
12th: 1 spell known
14th: 1 spell known
18th: 0 spells known

They would learn the spells in their chain at the level-up when they gain access to a new spell level.

Technik
 

Spatzimous: Very nice idea, but as a min/maxer, there's a _very_ obvious hole in pretty much any skill check based magic system. It's called (bonus)^2 x 20 gp for any skill affecting magic item. I suppose a DM could outlaw such items, but if a caster spent a couple thousand to cast a few levels higher than he should, and the DM didn't catch on... bad things could happen.

Of course, if such items weren't allowed, or were very, very restricted, then such a system could work very well. How would you determine which spells a caster knew though? You mentioned learning a 'fire' chain, but how would casters learn such chains, and how many would they get?
 

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