D&D 5E Spell focus needs an errated rule

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Clearly you don't know what "errata" means: what you describe is actually the exact reason why it need errata. The intend is clear, but rule wise it is wrong.
5e only in very rare cases changes rules through errata. Usually they change the wording to reflect the original intend.

I do think, that foci had exactly this problem for a while now. And the problem is that there is no rule for spellcasting foci on their own, only in the paragraph about material components.
Errata largely has NO purpose is the point, UngeheuerLich.

Errata could be useful when there's no clear intent from the author, or when different interpretations are varied and valid enough to muddy the waters and make it difficult to make an easy, clear, distinct, ruling... or when it's changing some very clear mistake like:

Wizard Spells (p. 211). Under 8th Level, “Trap the Soul” has been removed.
Because it was literally just an unintended artifact of a previous "Build" that got sent to the printers and referenced a spell that wasn't in the book at all.

But when it's "You can use a spell focus as a Spirit Bard to improve your Healing Spells" and someone digs back through a general rule in a book written -years- before to invent a conflict?

The Errata isn't actually -needed-. The intention is clear.

Hell. How's about this angle for you:

There's NOTHING that says you can ONLY use a Spellcasting Focus to cast spells when there's a Material Component involved. It says that you -can- use a Focus in place of a Material component.

But if you wanna run around with a wand in hand and cast all your spells through it, there's not a single rule in any book that says you can't. Just that you need your other hand free if it's got a Somatic Component and no material component.

So there you go. Works just fine without errata!
 

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Errata largely has NO purpose is the point, UngeheuerLich.

Errata could be useful when there's no clear intent from the author, or when different interpretations are varied and valid enough to muddy the waters and make it difficult to make an easy, clear, distinct, ruling... or when it's changing some very clear mistake like:


Because it was literally just an unintended artifact of a previous "Build" that got sent to the printers and referenced a spell that wasn't in the book at all.

But when it's "You can use a spell focus as a Spirit Bard to improve your Healing Spells" and someone digs back through a general rule in a book written -years- before to invent a conflict?

The Errata isn't actually -needed-. The intention is clear.

Hell. How's about this angle for you:

There's NOTHING that says you can ONLY use a Spellcasting Focus to cast spells when there's a Material Component involved. It says that you -can- use a Focus in place of a Material component.

But if you wanna run around with a wand in hand and cast all your spells through it, there's not a single rule in any book that says you can't. Just that you need your other hand free if it's got a Somatic Component and no material component.

So there you go. Works just fine without errata!
So it seems we disagree about the function of errata.
At least we agree about the intend of the rule.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
The only alternative way it could work is that Spirit Bards get a bunch of useless detritus they can use as a Spellcasting Focus...

And since none of their Healing Spells have a Material Component, they're not allowed to gain the extra 1d6 healing their subclass specifically gets as a class feature on Healing Spells they use with their focus.
Some of their healing spells DO though. Like Regeneration. So it's not useless, just not as useful as we're assuming.

There's no reasonable person who could ever come out with that as the designer's intention for creating the extra 1d6 healing function. Which is -why- the errata is unneeded. The intention is crystal clear.

No really, some people reasonably conclude it's just not a great power. And it doesn't have to be a great power. It's not a key element of that subclass. Heck even if it works like you want it to, it's not awesome. We're arguing if it's really sucky or just meh.

I watch videos, I read forums, I've also got a Tumblr blog where I get to watch people be pedantic about rules as written, plus Tiktok's got it's own subsection of "Things in the PHB that don't make sense" Them being "Popular" doesn't mean they're "Important" or "Right". It just means people want to watch people talk about D&D so they watch a video about D&D. Particularly videos with Rules-Advice and Questions. It also doesn't mean the viewers unilaterally agree with the contents of the video.

I didn't say it was "important" or "right" and could you please cut the strawmanning out? Some people play the game that way. YOU don't have to play the game that way, but it's not badwrongfun if others do.

All of it is incredibly narrow, focused, and specific interpretations of the words on the page to create a conflict where there really shouldn't be one by people who think semantics is a great pastime.

And, y'know? Cool for them. If that's how you wanna spend your time it works just great!
Your tone above doesn't tell me you think it's great. Generally you don't say "no reasonable person" if you think people differing with your view is just great and cool for them. It sure looks like you're saying there is only one rational answer and it's yours.

But.

Living that life of extreme semantic interpretation can lead a person to isolate themself from common vernacular and colloquial understanding. And lead them to see confusion where none, or practically none, exists. Hence threads like this where half a dozen people are SO CONFUSED or think it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE while everyone else is like "No, it clearly makes sense. You're trying to interpret it in a way to explicitly not make sense"

I guess, in the end, that is who errata is really -for-. 'Cause the rest of us don't -need- someone to come down from on high and correct an apparent foible in the text.
Oh yeah you're superior to others here. Understood how you view it. I guess you're done with a thread full of people like this?
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Some of their healing spells DO though. Like Regeneration. So it's not useless, just not as useful as we're assuming.



No really, some people reasonably conclude it's just not a great power. And it doesn't have to be a great power. It's not a key element of that subclass. Heck even if it works like you want it to, it's not awesome. We're arguing if it's really sucky or just meh.



I didn't say it was "important" or "right" and could you please cut the strawmanning out? Some people play the game that way. YOU don't have to play the game that way, but it's not badwrongfun if others do.


Your tone above doesn't tell me you think it's great. Generally you don't say "no reasonable person" if you think people differing with your view is just great and cool for them. It sure looks like you're saying there is only one rational answer and it's yours.


Oh yeah you're superior to others here. Understood how you view it. I guess you're done with a thread full of people like this?
Everyone here thinks it's a mistake that needs to be errata'd or thinks it's not a mistake and doesn't need to be errata'd because the intention is clear and the specific rule beats the general rule.

No reasonable person in this very thread thinks that the designers intended for it to work -exclusively- with Regenerate. And if they -had- intended that, they'd have just said that it only works with the Regenerate Spell rather than making people dig around through Spell Focus definitions to find out it -only- works with Regenerate.

Again. No reasonable person thinks that's how it's meant to work. Hence the call for Errata.

I do find it amusing that you made an argumentum ad populum and when I pointed out it didn't make things right or important you accused me of making a strawman.

I think it is, honestly, great that people who enjoy semantics to that degree can find a community and enjoy the semantics. The philosophy of language. It's cool. No cap, no joke, no sarcasm.

And the fact that there's different groups doesn't make one superior to the other. Just different. But hey, that's a nice Strawman Ad Hominem you've got there. ;)
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Everyone here thinks it's a mistake that needs to be errata'd or thinks it's not a mistake and doesn't need to be errata'd because the intention is clear and the specific rule beats the general rule.

No reasonable person in this very thread thinks that the designers intended for it to work -exclusively- with Regenerate. And if they -had- intended that, they'd have just said that it only works with the Regenerate Spell rather than making people dig around through Spell Focus definitions to find out it -only- works with Regenerate.

Again. No reasonable person thinks that's how it's meant to work. Hence the call for Errata.

I said I THINK it was supposed to work that way BUT I AM NOT SURE. Crawford has ruled different than I thought he would on many occasions. It is in fact reasonable to conclude differently.
I do find it amusing that you made an argumentum ad populum and when I pointed out it didn't make things right or important you accused me of making a strawman.
I didn't make an argumentum ad populum, and you're strawmanning again. Please stop. Look again at where I mentioned the videos. You think I said something completely different from what I actually said. I never said it was "the right way" to view it. You were claiming people wouldn't care, and I was saying some people do care. That's not "It's popular so it's right" it's "it's popular so it must exist as a thing for some meaningful number of people even if I don't view it that way."

I think it is, honestly, great that people who enjoy semantics to that degree can find a community and enjoy the semantics. The philosophy of language. It's cool. No cap, no joke, no sarcasm.

And the fact that there's different groups doesn't make one superior to the other. Just different. But hey, that's a nice Strawman Ad Hominem you've got there. ;)
When you said no reasonable person could view it differently than you, that was you putting the lie to your claim you think it's all good. We all know where you are coming from. It's not like I didn't quote you above doing it.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I said I THINK it was supposed to work that way BUT I AM NOT SURE. Crawford has ruled different than I thought he would on many occasions. It is in fact reasonable to conclude differently.

I didn't make an argumentum ad populum, and you're strawmanning again. Please stop. Look again at where I mentioned the videos. You think I said something completely different from what I actually said. I never said it was "the right way" to view it. You were claiming people wouldn't care, and I was saying some people do care. That's not "It's popular so it's right" it's "it's popular so it must exist as a thing for some meaningful number of people even if I don't view it that way."


When you said no reasonable person could view it differently than you, that was you putting the lie to your claim you think it's all good. We all know where you are coming from. It's not like I didn't quote you above doing it.
It is reasonable to conclude that WotC intended for there to be only one spell available to Spirit Bards where they could use their Spirit Bard class feature to gain 1d6 to healing spell cast with their focus?

I really don't think it is. Yeah, it applies damage to the rest of their combat spells with a material component by that logic... but why even mention healing spells at -all- if it's just for Regenerate?

Because even if you rule that Resurrection and similar magic is Healing it still wouldn't work with a focus 'cause it has an expensive spell component that must be provided.

I'm not even gonna deal with your newest angle of trying to accuse me of strawmanning your argumentum ad populum. Literally the only things you included in your statement was an assumption about me as a person (Ad Hominem) and a comment on the popularity of Rules Videos for D&D.

And as to your "Putting the Lie" thing, that's just another attack on me as a person rather than my argument. You are calling me a liar rather than addressing the claim.

Mainly because you're ignoring the fact that the claim of no reasonable person and the statement that I'm happy people who enjoy semantics can enjoy their philosophy of language are two separate things. One does not negate the other.

Here, I'll connect them just for you: I don't think people who are hanging out in the Semantics Communities of the web arguing whether a Hotdog qualifies as a Taco because it's encased on three sides in a grain product sincerely and reasonably believe that WotC intended for the only healing spell to be affected by the additional d6 was Regenerate.

'Cause even those semantics loving language philosophers would be dissecting the meaning of the words and the ways they could be interpreted, not sincerely espousing the idea that it was only to be used for Regenerate.

They'd probably want an errata, too.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
All they really need to do is errata spell focuses to be useable with any spell (this way you can add in things like a fire wand that increases damage with fire spells by 1d6, though I guess you can just have them as being held like the way that the wand of the warmage and staff of the magi work) and then say that when you are holding a focus, you replace inexpensive material components that aren't consumed and you do not need a hand free for a somatic component if you holding one - but probably with better wording. I feel like this is what a lot of people have done already.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
It is reasonable to conclude that WotC intended for there to be only one spell available to Spirit Bards where they could use their Spirit Bard class feature to gain 1d6 to healing spell cast with their focus?
Yes, because it didn't just say healing spells, right? So it's not just one spell at all. And there may well be other healing spells even I just found one when I made a brief look. But yeah, still lots of spells benefit from it with either interpretation, so yes, reasonable.

I really don't think it is. Yeah, it applies damage to the rest of their combat spells with a material component by that logic... but why even mention healing spells at -all- if it's just for Regenerate?
Because at least it helps that one, and they may have other books in the future that add more spells, or there may be a way to add a material component in the future, or you might be multiclassed or have another way to add a different healing spell not on the list. There are lots of reasons to include healing spells but to not have many listed initially for that class.
Because even if you rule that Resurrection and similar magic is Healing it still wouldn't work with a focus 'cause it has an expensive spell component that must be provided.
And let's be clear you CANNOT use it, under either interpretation, with those other spells. Period. Unless you find a way to cast it without the expensive component, like with a Wish spell.
I'm not even gonna deal with your newest angle of trying to accuse me of strawmanning your argumentum ad populum. Literally the only things you included in your statement was an assumption about me as a person (Ad Hominem) and a comment on the popularity of Rules Videos for D&D.
In no way did I say or imply the popularity meant it was right. So knock it the F off already. You knew I didn't think it was right when I said it. I was saying it was evidence some meaningful chunk of people think those things are important to them. You were speaking for "everyone" or "everyone who is reasonable" and I was saying "no there are some reasonable people who disagree with you." There is no way that's an argumentum ad populum.
And as to your "Putting the Lie" thing, that's just another attack on me as a person rather than my argument. You are calling me a liar rather than addressing the claim.
Yes dude, because you in one sentence said anyone who disagrees with you must not be a reasonable person and in another said that's cool that others disagree with you good for them. Those are mutually exclusive statements. "Putting the lie" isn't calling you a liar, it's saying one of your statements cannot be accurate.
Mainly because you're ignoring the fact that the claim of no reasonable person and the statement that I'm happy people who enjoy semantics can enjoy their philosophy of language are two separate things. One does not negate the other.
It does though. I've already seen reasonable people disagree with your view on how this works. They are not into semantics, they're responding to something Jeremy Crawford started regarding those semantics previously.
Here, I'll connect them just for you: I don't think people who are hanging out in the Semantics Communities of the web arguing whether a Hotdog qualifies as a Taco because it's encased on three sides in a grain product sincerely and reasonably believe that WotC intended for the only healing spell to be affected by the additional d6 was Regenerate.
Well, you're wrong. Some genuinely think that's how it's intended to work. You don't have to agree with them, but stop acting like 1) they don't exist, or 2) they must be unreasonable if they have that view or 3) you know how they privately "really" think about it.
'Cause even those semantics loving language philosophers would be dissecting the meaning of the words and the ways they could be interpreted, not sincerely espousing the idea that it was only to be used for Regenerate.

They'd probably want an errata, too.
But they are sincere. And the primary reason they are sincere is because Crawford already surprised them in interpreting that "can cast semantic components ONLY if you're also holding a focus or material component with the same hand holding that thing" ruling he made. So they sincerely think Crawford is doing that again with this rule.

I can tell you I genuinely do not know how Crawford or the other designer who wrote this thinks about this issue. I hope he views it like I do, but the number of times I've been wrong on my guess once they do speak out on Twitter is frankly legion. We really, sincerely could all be wrong in assuming it works the way we've been saying we think it works. It has happened before. You can find threads here about other rules, before they are clarified, where there is unanimous or nearly unanimous view it works like X, and then there is a tweet from Crawford and we find out they intended it as Y instead.
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
Errata largely has NO purpose is the point, UngeheuerLich.

Errata could be useful when there's no clear intent from the author, or when different interpretations are varied and valid enough to muddy the waters and make it difficult to make an easy, clear, distinct, ruling... or when it's changing some very clear mistake like:


Because it was literally just an unintended artifact of a previous "Build" that got sent to the printers and referenced a spell that wasn't in the book at all.

But when it's "You can use a spell focus as a Spirit Bard to improve your Healing Spells" and someone digs back through a general rule in a book written -years- before to invent a conflict?

The Errata isn't actually -needed-. The intention is clear.
Except it is not. We have literal D&D designers getting a different intention from the ability than you do.

The spell focus rules less need errata than they need rewriting, because they don't reflect a reasonable set of rules, nor do the reflect how people play them, nor do they reflect what is in the minds of D&D designers now when they write new rules interacting with them.

They are a mess.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If people are not familiar with how this all stated, and why people might be suspicious that the designers do intend for this feature to work as wonky as it's written, you can see here. It's not that fans are overly focused on semantics. It's that WOTC came out with an article with a weird ruling saying you cannot voluntarily use a spell focus to cast a healing spell which does not have a material component in the same way you could if it did have a material component. You instead have to do it a different way (or possibly are prevented from doing it at all if your other hand were full in that scenario).

WOTC said:
A cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.

If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.

Get it now? WOTC came out with a Sage Advice article (not just a Tweet but a full-on clarification article) which includes specifically saying, "Nope, you cannot voluntarily use your spell focus to cast a healing spell which doesn't otherwise have a material component in the same way you could do it if the spell did have a material component." Somehow you can do the hand gestures with that spell focus in that same hand if it had material components, but you cannot do the exact same thing with that same hand and spell focus if it didn't have material components.

That is what started this stuff. Not some obsessive philosophy focus on semantics. It was WOTC stating that as a rules clarification. And a lot of people wondering why, since it doesn't seem to make a lot of logical sense. Which causes a lot of people to wonder if this is similarly an odd rule which runs contrary to what we think would be logical with the focus rules.
 
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