Spell-less spellcasters?

Oh believe me, I'm making this as easy on myself as possible. My cleric, for example, pretty much cribs Lay on Hands and Mercies/Cruelties from the Paladin/Anti-paladin (I'd sub the Paladin with either SGG's Templar class, or a Paladin variant without Mercies, like the Divine Defender), borrows a few Oracle Mysteries, and repurposes several cleric powers from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. Most of this project involves shunting around existing powers from various sources into a playable class.

Something like this Pact Magic book you recommend could also be useful. I also like the idea of using something like M&M (I'd use TrueSorcery) to convert spells into powers.

I would urge a slight amount of caution. Different companies and different products have different sensibilities in terms of "what's balanced". So if you start pulling from multiple sources and frankensteining it, you start to run the risk of having uneven powers; possibly within a class, probably in comparison to other classes.

That's one reason why I suggested going with M&M or something. You basically want a single framework that you can run _everything_ through; that'll at least give you more consistent results and allow you to tweak/tune things easier.

So for example, if True Sorcery really turns your crank, use that as the basis for building everything. I seem to recall it functions on a "drain" principle, so that might or might not work for you. The important thing really, is being able to duplicate effects. M&M's power system, True Sorcery custom spells... whatever.

There's nothing stopping you from grabbing powers from any class or supplement you want. You just wanna know how what you're grabbing is going to play with what you've already got.

Another advantage to working with something like an effects based set of rules, is when you're looking at the theoretical cost (either in terms of Energy, Save DC vs Fatigue, whatever) of a power; if it's substantially higher than other powers of the "equivalent level" then it seems like a candidat for being bumped up the food chain.

So you'd have something like really cheap or limited powers can be At Will. A middle of the road cost ("standard") winds up being an Encounter power and really expensive ones might wind up being Dailies. Or whatever.

Just something to think about. Lord knows you shouldn't simply take my suggestions for everything, but give a think. That way you're more likely to be designing in a consistent space and it'll be easier to start troubleshooting when things go pear-shaped.

And when you're dealing with the 3.x spell system, that's pretty likely. :D
 

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Something else to consider:

Get yourself a copy of Mutants & Masterminds (the Anime SRD/BESMd20 would work as well, but it's not popular like M&M) and build the d20 spells that you want, using the M&M powers system. Since it's an effects-based system, you should be able to cover a fair portion of what you want, especially since it's low to mid level spells you're thinking of. The spells that you can't build... *shrug*... you should be able to look at other spells you've rebuilt and use that to fake it.

Funny you mentioned M&M. The system's probably the closest in what designers probably use as some form of benchmark when developing the abilities, damage range, etc. of the PC and their antagonist. Think the system could be used to develop a class-based system where the classes are roughly "equal" to each other at every level, but manifest their abilities differently without resorting to the same mechanism (e.g., fighters and wizards have the same range of damage but one's using weapons while the other's using spells which work differently, etc.)?
 

Funny you mentioned M&M. The system's probably the closest in what designers probably use as some form of benchmark when developing the abilities, damage range, etc. of the PC and their antagonist. Think the system could be used to develop a class-based system where the classes are roughly "equal" to each other at every level, but manifest their abilities differently without resorting to the same mechanism (e.g., fighters and wizards have the same range of damage but one's using weapons while the other's using spells which work differently, etc.)?

Hmmm. I think I'm not quite understanding you. With just a slight tweaking of M&M, you'd basically have that, I would think. They've already effectively got "classes" in the form of their archetypes. Granted, they don't follow the same progression style of actual classes, but you're basically on your way there. I would _guess_ that one of the various M&M supplements would allow you to run a D&D-ish game.

If that seems a bit like too much work, then you can cheat it a bit. To see what I mean, go here:
Anime d20 System Reference Document

Now, do a browser search to find in page; you're going to look for "fighter". That will bump you down to the point where you can see how the Anime SRD (BESMd20) did the breakdown for the base classes, using their system. It's got differences from M&M, but should be a good starting point for building your own M&M version.

Is that right, or am I completely off base? Given that M&M (and the Anime SRD) are effects based in the first place, it seems to me that what you're talking about is a basic part of their systems. And if it's _not_, then it certainly seems easy enough to add.

But I'm betting that people are going to squawk if you've got a fighter type that swings around a double-bladed battle ax and is inflicting as much damage as a fireball. You're very likely to bump up against people's objections to class parity; it's a fundamental thing a lot of people that stayed with 3.x dislike about 4E. They _like_ classes being unequal. But this starts to threadjack. Happy to continue the conversation in another thread if you want.
 

Oh and a sort of addendum for both 1Mac and joela...

I think one of the things to do in order to sell an effects based thing for folks that like the usual D&D style? Hide it.

No, I don't mean lie about using it or something I like. I mean just flat out don't say anything. Don't have the spells, powers, or whatever obviously constructed: Blast 3d6 (Fire) or whatever. Present it in the default fashion. Such and such a power, duration of x, effect of y, save z. Whatever. Take all your construction and move it behind the curtain.

At the end of the day, the players aren't _really_ going to care about _how_ the abilities have come about. They're gonna care about what those abilities are, whether they're cool or not, how effective they are, and making sure they have cool abilities so they don't have to sit on the sidelines while Bob hogs the glory light.

The only people that are really going to care about how the abilities are made are A)you the GM and B)Any other GM that would like to use a system like that themselves.

Oh sure, there's the theoretical C) Player that would like to construct his own abilities. But person C is probably a GM themselves or they'd like to try and convince their GM to go along with the idea; and honestly, we know that most GMs (us included) are inherently suspicious of anything created by someone other than ourselves. Especially if it came from the internet.

So cook up your variant, steal like a mofo from as many sources as you want, and figure out a way to be able to consistently balance it. And keep the magic behind the curtain. We tend to lose our sense of wonder when we figure out how an illusionist does their trick, even though we desperately want (or think we want) to know. Same deal with the mechanics; once you whip the curtain back, folks are just going to go at it from a mechanical perspective.

Just my own thoughts; I'm sure other folks'll disagree with me and that's fine too.
 

Is that right, or am I completely off base? Given that M&M (and the Anime SRD) are effects based in the first place, it seems to me that what you're talking about is a basic part of their systems. And if it's _not_, then it certainly seems easy enough to add.

Nope, pretty much dead on. i'll follow up with the Anime SRD. Thanks!

But I'm betting that people are going to squawk if you've got a fighter type that swings around a double-bladed battle ax and is inflicting as much damage as a fireball. You're very likely to bump up against people's objections to class parity; it's a fundamental thing a lot of people that stayed with 3.x dislike about 4E. They _like_ classes being unequal. But this starts to threadjack. Happy to continue the conversation in another thread if you want.

Really? I get the impression that some of the biggest protesters of the classes inequality are 3.x / Pathfinder gamers (at least from what I've read on the boards).
 

Oh and a sort of addendum for both 1Mac and joela...

I think one of the things to do in order to sell an effects based thing for folks that like the usual D&D style? Hide it.

No, I don't mean lie about using it or something I like. I mean just flat out don't say anything. Don't have the spells, powers, or whatever obviously constructed: Blast 3d6 (Fire) or whatever. Present it in the default fashion. Such and such a power, duration of x, effect of y, save z. Whatever. Take all your construction and move it behind the curtain.

At the end of the day, the players aren't _really_ going to care about _how_ the abilities have come about. They're gonna care about what those abilities are, whether they're cool or not, how effective they are, and making sure they have cool abilities so they don't have to sit on the sidelines while Bob hogs the glory light.

The only people that are really going to care about how the abilities are made are A)you the GM and B)Any other GM that would like to use a system like that themselves.

Oh sure, there's the theoretical C) Player that would like to construct his own abilities. But person C is probably a GM themselves or they'd like to try and convince their GM to go along with the idea; and honestly, we know that most GMs (us included) are inherently suspicious of anything created by someone other than ourselves. Especially if it came from the internet.

So cook up your variant, steal like a mofo from as many sources as you want, and figure out a way to be able to consistently balance it. And keep the magic behind the curtain. We tend to lose our sense of wonder when we figure out how an illusionist does their trick, even though we desperately want (or think we want) to know. Same deal with the mechanics; once you whip the curtain back, folks are just going to go at it from a mechanical perspective.

Just my own thoughts; I'm sure other folks'll disagree with me and that's fine too.

Could you post what your homebrew system is, based on all your postings? Real curious now. Thanx! (Oh, and in a separate thread. Yeah, gettin' real close to threadjackin' here :angel: )
 

Some existing 3.5 material that already has this kind of thing:

- Complete Arcane, the Warlock class. It's quite strong at low level (with an at-will ray attack) but that power drops off quick as other classes get more versatility and more raw power than the Warlock's limited bag of tricks.

- Dragon Magic, the Dragonfire Adept class. It's basically a Warlock except with a breath weapon instead of a ray attack, with the same sorts of strengths and weaknesses.

- Magic of Incarnum, the Incarnate and Totemist classes (Soulborn is lame, don't use it). They create soulmelds that act like pseudo-magical equipment and give special abilities that can generally be used at-will, with essentia points that they shuffle around between soulmelds to distribute their power. They can be fairly strong but take a lot of fiddling and synergizing with picking the right soulmelds and using them the right way.

- Tome of Battle, the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade classes. They follow a "sword saint" theme, taking martial power into the realm of the supernatural. They get a set of powers that can each be used once in an encounter before needing to use some special condition to recharge (random shuffling for a Crusader, a full-round action for a Swordsage*, or spending a standard action to attack or perform a weapon kata for a Warblade). More powerful than a Fighter, less powerful than a spellcaster; most notably, they can be very tough nuts to crack if built right, with things like temporary hit points, healing, concealment, enhanced movement, enhanced Will saves, and so on.

* Well, this part depends on taking a particular feat, but pretty much every Swordsage will take that feat.

- Tome of Magic, the Binder class. It binds vestiges each day that give packages of abilities - some at-will, some once every 5 rounds, some continuous. More powerful than the Warlock but not nearly as game-breaking than a normal spellcaster.
 

Some existing 3.5 material that already has this kind of thing:

- Complete Arcane, the Warlock class. It's quite strong at low level (with an at-will ray attack) but that power drops off quick as other classes get more versatility and more raw power than the Warlock's limited bag of tricks.

- Dragon Magic, the Dragonfire Adept class. It's basically a Warlock except with a breath weapon instead of a ray attack, with the same sorts of strengths and weaknesses.

- Magic of Incarnum, the Incarnate and Totemist classes (Soulborn is lame, don't use it). They create soulmelds that act like pseudo-magical equipment and give special abilities that can generally be used at-will, with essentia points that they shuffle around between soulmelds to distribute their power. They can be fairly strong but take a lot of fiddling and synergizing with picking the right soulmelds and using them the right way.

- Tome of Battle, the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade classes. They follow a "sword saint" theme, taking martial power into the realm of the supernatural. They get a set of powers that can each be used once in an encounter before needing to use some special condition to recharge (random shuffling for a Crusader, a full-round action for a Swordsage*, or spending a standard action to attack or perform a weapon kata for a Warblade). More powerful than a Fighter, less powerful than a spellcaster; most notably, they can be very tough nuts to crack if built right, with things like temporary hit points, healing, concealment, enhanced movement, enhanced Will saves, and so on.

* Well, this part depends on taking a particular feat, but pretty much every Swordsage will take that feat.

- Tome of Magic, the Binder class. It binds vestiges each day that give packages of abilities - some at-will, some once every 5 rounds, some continuous. More powerful than the Warlock but not nearly as game-breaking than a normal spellcaster.

Hmmm. The above would be good benchmarks, then, if one redesigned the core magic-using classes (i.e., sorcerers, wizards, clerics, and druids). Thanx!
 

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