D&D 3E/3.5 Spell/Rule Changes from 3.0 to 3.5 -- How did we survive 3.0?

[Victim]

Actually the best use of it was with x3 or x4 multipliers IIRC. And as others have noted, you get the static bonuses too.
Improved crit is still good enough that people take it, and keen likewise. I don't see how they've been turned into useless options, despite having their power reduced. That says to me that they were a bit too good originally.

Or it means that they're aren't a whole lot of alternatives. If I look at feats that increase damage per round and aren't situational, then the list isn't all that long. Focus and its chain, Spec and its chain, Imp Crit, Point Blank and Rapid Shot, along with Power Attack in many situations. If I'm a fighter looking to do more damage, Imp Crit is a natural feat to take. Not exactly tons of alternatives, especially since a fighter could easily have all the alternatives too.

Second, the two seem like they should stack. I can accept on magic effect not working with another mystical, "can't happen here" ability. On the other hand, it seems like the ability aim for vital locations should be seperate from having a super sharp weapon. Everyone who'd take Imp crit and keen probably takes weapon focus and has a magic weapon. So should focus and magic weapons no longer stack? People would still take one or the other, so the two together must be too good, right?

Silversheen and a Bless Weapon or align weapon spell take care of the pitfiend's DR. Even without those measures, though, a 20th level fighter/barbarian can brute force through the DR for more than 60 points per full attack without flanking, tanglefoot bags, etc.

 

[rangerjohn]

OTOH, it IS a pit fiend.You're at least level 15 if you're expected to beat it. That means BAB +15 and another 8-10 points of modifiers. At level 15, you'll need some good tactics to take him on, or you may as well just throw the towel in now, so you can probably (one way or another) knock another 5 or 6 off his AC (tanglefoot bags, bardic music, flanking etc). Now you're power attacking.

And of course if you had any advance warning about him, you've got an oil of bless weapon and a silver weapon instead of about 3 points of those modifiers (from your uber-leet weapon). Or better yet, you've got silversheen and bless weapon.

But note - you don't NEED to have those things. You COULD do it with a bit of luck and some superior tactics.

Of course, this is assuming he doesn't have unholy aura activated. Which the MM entry assumes he does. Or invisiblity etc. Oh, and every group has a paladin to cast bless weapon? Even if you do have Oil of Bless Weapon or silversheen, Do you realize, what he's doing to you while you prep your weapon? The only way you have a chance against this fellow is advanced knowledge, which the MM assumes you don't have. Even then I don't know that I want to be in grappling range of a Pit Fiend. Especially one with unholy aura activated. But with his weaknesses, that is your best bet. If he allows it, which isn't guarenteed, with flight and greater teleport.

 

[Storyteller01]

I hated the fact that in 3.0, if you walked by someone, and they missed with an attack of opportunity, that you are now perfectly safe and can grapple them, move through their square, cast a spell, etc etc, and not draw any attacks of opportunity. It makes so much more SENSE this way.

-The Souljourner

that's actually pretty close to the truth, at least for grappling and movement (i've never actually cast a spell, but hey, who knows...). if anything, YOU get an AoO if the guy misses (just an observation though. Not out to snark anyone).

 

[Nail]

Should I point out, yet again, that my example chart takes all of this into account - and gives you average damage per round against all ACs between 10 and 40, inclusive?

Don't worry, Patryn, I'm not ignoring you! I just like to work through the math myself....in part so I know what each peice of the puzzle does. For example: I can't quite tell if your graph includes the bonus damage (from flaming) when determining the crit damage.

Either way, and as I've said before, the problem comes from PCs who have lots of static bonuses to the damage roll. Without that piece, stacking keen and impr. crit is no big deal.

 

[swrushing]

Ah, you must have missed the memo! They actually went from the "warrior with his mystic weapon who happens to be screwed if he meets something with the wrong DR since his weapon is useless against it" to the "warrior who can still be useful even with the wrong weapon because the lowered DR allows some damage through". DOn't feel bad - it's a common error.

I dont know about other people's campaigns, but in mine, it simply was not true that fighters ran into untouchable foes with enough regularity to be a noticeable feature. this was for a variety of reasons.

1. The monsters wityh egregious levels of DR that would shut down comparably levelled fighters with their dr were relatively rare, in book and in play.
2. The dr bypass numbers (+1 weapon,+3 weapon etc) were usually on par with the usual equipment availability when the wealth levels were even in the ballparks of the expected values.
3. When the situations mentioned above came up, the fighter could usually rely on his TEAMMATE, the mages and clerics, to provide him with MW and GMW to assist in countering the problem. (I for one never found the "one guy cannot do it alone and needs support" team-based nature of that to be a problem, rather a feature.)

But, guess what? Lets assume every other dnd campaign in existence was plagued by the high bypass numbers. Lets say the problem was so ever present and egregious that every other session ever played was nearly broken down into suicidal fetal-ball curled despondant fighter players by the end of the session by their inability to damage the adamantine golems at second level.

If thats true, you fix it by lowering the blocking numbers. I actually think lowering the blocking numbers so that less damage is countered was a good idea. I just think it was a relatively minor tweak, affected rather few situations.

You do not need to chunk the "magic counters dr" approach at the same time.

The one change could have been minorly beneficial. The second was not needed. For every good changes in 3.5 IMO there was at least one bad change of at least as significant impact and many more unnecessary ones.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Don't worry, Patryn, I'm not ignoring you! I just like to work through the math myself....in part so I know what each peice of the puzzle does. For example: I can't quite tell if your graph includes the bonus damage (from flaming) when determining the crit damage.

It multiplies it - because the calculator was originally set up to do statistical comparisons based on 3.0 as implemented in Neverwinter Nights, which multiplies all damage on criticals (excepting Sneak Attack, etc.).

So, to counteract that, I just add in a little negative modifier on critical hits (originally put in place to handle things like Overwhelming Critical, etc.).

Either way, and as I've said before, the problem comes from PCs who have lots of static bonuses to the damage roll. Without that piece, stacking keen and impr. crit is no big deal.

Actually, here's the latest version, using both guys with effective +5 weapons - Falchion+2, Holy, Keen; and Greatsword+2, Holy, Flaming. Both are 15th-level Fighters, and therefore have 2 additional iterative attacks. They also have a Strength of 30.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott...cleavepct=&2circlekickpct=&report=on&maxac=60

Again, you'll see that the Falchion wins - and, generally, wins pretty well, against *trivial* foes - those against whom a roll of a 1 is the only way to miss, even on the third of three attacks. As the required roll increases, the Falchion's lead decreases.

The crossover point is, roughly, AC 40. For our boys, that's a roll of *8* required to hit on the primary attack and 18 on the tertiary.

For all ACs higher than that, greatsword wins. It's never as far ahead of the falchion as the falchion was initially ahead of the greatsword but that basically reveals one thing:

Against foes who are within the normal limits of your CR, the Falchion is roughly equivalent and is in fact slightly behind the Greatsword *if* Keen and Improved Critical stack.

 

[Lamoni]

Wow, 5 pages now.

Thought I'd chime in. The problem with improved critical stacking with keen wasn't really a problem by the numbers... only a problem with perception. When someone says that they score a critical, you think that means they do a lot of damage. If someone is doing twice as many criticals, you assume that they are doing a lot more damage.

I also like having a critical hit mean that you hit a critical area on your opponent. When you can hit 5 critical points on your opponent and they are still standing, that doesn't make as much sense to me. I like critical hits to be more rare... not rare in 'just once a day', but rare in 'seldom more than once against the same opponent'. Not letting them stack also doesn't hurt anyone... now they just get a different feat that is beneficial, or stack on a different +1 enhancement to their weapon.

As to the topic, I love 3.5. There are many changes that I don't understand why they made the change, but I also see no problem with the new way of doing it. There are a few things that still haven't been perfected yet, but I see no reason to shun all of v3.5 because it isn't perfect. When the next edition comes out, it too will fix things that didn't need fixing, not quite fix some things, and it will add things that could turn into problems. 3.5 is a nice improvement though and I can't see going back to 3.0... even if my books were all destroyed, I would still play 3.5 with just the SRD.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Darn double post caused by forum slowitude...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Patryn, I notice your numbers do not account for power attack. Especially when discussing the 3.5 revision, that's a very significant flaw since optimally applied power attack can often add as much as 50% to a fighter's average damage/round.

Since the break-even point in the falchion/greatsword discussion is a function of the flat damage bonus, something that changes that bonus (like power attack--especially the 3.5 version) is an essential part of any valid comparison.

For instance, according to:
http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php

A 3.0 Specialized 30 strength greatsword wielder with a +5 Keen, Improved Crit sword will deal:
217 points of damage/round against AC 10 with optimal power attack
171 points of damage/round against AC 20 with optimal power attack
127 points of damage/round against AC 30 with optimal power attack (though power attack only gives a +0.5 average damage boost at this level)
71 points of damage/round against AC 40 with optimal power attack (which is none)
http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE

Swap that 3.0 Greatsword for a 3.0 falchion and you get:
231.5 points of damage against AC 10 (PA: 20)
180 points of damage against AC 20 (PA: 8)
132.5 points of damage against AC 30 (PA 3 yields an average damage increase of 1.5)
72.5 points of damage against AC 40 (no PA)

http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE

Now, swapping to 3.5 and picking up Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization:
Greatsword:
AC 10: 285.5 (PA 20)
AC 20: 208.5 (PA 14)
AC 30: 135.5 (PA 5)
AC 40: 73 (no PA)
http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE


Falchion:
AC 10: 300.5 (PA 20)
AC 20: 218 (PA 14)
AC 30: 139.5 (PA 5)
AC 40: 73 (no PA)
http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE

If we want to see how 3.5 would look with crit stacking, the program seems to allow that (though it does cause errors):
Greatsword:
AC 10: 309.5 (PA 20)
AC 20: 226 (PA 14)
AC 30: 147 (PA 5)
AC 40: 78.5 (no PA)
http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE

Falchion:
AC 10: 335 (PA 20)
AC 20: 243 (PA 14)
AC 30: 155 (PA 5)
AC 40: 80.5 (no PA)
http://www.distanceeducationconsult...d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE

So, with that, it seems that 3.5 made a very noticable increase in the two-handed fighter's damage output per full attack--somewhere in the neighborhood of one extra hit per full attack. Allowing Keen and Imp Crit to stack would increase it even further.

I don't think that would be a real problem but it is worth noting that, in the 20th level comparison, the falchion is ahead at every point on the scale except against AC 40 without keen and improved crit stacking and at that point it breaks even.

The numbers would look different at lower levels (where +5 weapons, 30 strengths, and greater weapon specialization don't apply) and would also probably look different without power attack. They might look different even with suboptimal power attack numbers (though I suspect that they'd either be more or less equally suboptimal or that the greatsword would be hurt less by too little power attack and the falchion hurt less by too much power attack). The greatsword would also be slightly ahead against crit-immune opponents too. But it's certainly something to think about.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, I believe Power Attack will hurt the Falchion wielder more than you think it will, because it will cause even less of his critical threat range to apply.

The chart I showed, however, can be altered to show what happens when Power Attack is taken into account.

I assumed that the people in question were the same 15th-level Fighters as before, still using their +2 +mods weapons, and that they were Power Attacking for 5 (-5 to Hit, +10 to damage).

Since the calculator uses 3.0 rules, you can account for the 3.5 PA (x2 PA damage on two-handed weapons) by giving each weapon a damage bonus of +5.

Because of this, ignore the normal lines (Joe Falchion, Bob Greatsword; red and black, respectively) and instead look at the Power Attack modifed lines.

The Power Attack chart looks like:

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott...cleavepct=&2circlekickpct=&report=on&maxac=60

The trend, as expected, remains the same.