D&D 5E Spell Scrolls: How Many Mystic Ciphers Are There?

[Satyrn]

Okay, so this subject doesn't matter to me, but ic it ever does come up at my table I will use Lancelot's explanation.

So this thread could have helped me in the future. Thanks!

 

[steeldragons]

There are 3. One for each "type" of magic. Conceivably, if you wish to divy them up further, 6 if wishing to use specific magical/magic-using "languages."

The Divine Magic Ciphers: Celestial or Fiendish. Available to Clerics and Paladins of an appropriate alignment, Bards of any alignment. Possibly Warlocks of the appropriate patron.

The Arcane Magic Ciphers: "Arcanic/Magespeak/whatever your setting's incantations use" or Draconic. Available to Wizards (including Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters), Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Bards.

The Nature Magic Ciphers: SylvanFae/Elfish magic or Elemental magic. Available to Druids, Rangers, and Bards. Possibly Sorcerers of fae ancestry and/or Warlocks of fae patrons.

 

[Harzel]

There are as many magic ciphers as there are races of elves.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...o-many-elves&p=7360089&viewfull=1#post7360089

 

[Satyrn]

There are as many magic ciphers as there are races of elves.

∞ + 1

 

[Hriston]

Agreed this is a good question if only from a theoretical point of view and gives us something to think about and discuss.

One for each spell does not make sense at least to me as then a caster would have to know every cipher needed for their class.

Well, it isn't inconceivable that an apprentice spellcaster has devoted many years of study to acquiring the means of unlocking all the mystic ciphers they may encounter in their career that apply to their class's spell list, so I included it because it's a relatively simple option conceptually and allows for different casting classes sharing some spells but not others. What I don't like about this option, though, is by tying the cipher to the individual spell it creates the odd situation that the spellcaster has learned the cipher without learning the only spell to which it pertains. That and the inordinate number of ciphers it would require to exist. I imagine, however, that a reasonable answer to the question asked by the OP may lie somewhere between this and the second option.

As someone stated one for each spell casting class means that for a scroll to be used by different classes it would have to have two ciphers, which does not make sense when the scroll is created as you would need someone from each class to be available to place the correct cipher.

This is one of the reasons I started thinking about this issue. After reading the item description and understanding that the same scroll could be read by members of different classes who nevertheless derived the ability to read the scroll from their separate classes, I was left with the mental image of a spell scroll as sort of a Rosetta Stone, containing multiple version of the spell, each one written in the cipher of a different class. I hadn't considered the process involved in creating such an item, but I suppose multi-classed individuals could accomplish it.

The cipher for overlapping classes again seems strange meaning they all have to work together to come up with these.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The way I imagine it, the ciphers were invented or discovered by individuals, and their use has been disseminated through time until we arrive at the present state of affairs. It makes sense to me that spellcasters that have different areas of expertise would have bodies of knowledge that are shared across disciplines, while others are passed down only through specific traditions.

o either the scroll cipher is only for the class that created it or as I would play it - doesn't matter because it is magic and its just works.

I'm not convinced that the only way to play this as written is to handwave it "because magic". It is a very playable way of limiting who can utilize the scroll, however, ultimately probably because it's so easy to ignore.

 

[StormbringerAUS]

If nothing else this has got a few of us thinking, though I suspect in my case I will just leave it as the 'hand wave'. Though each class having a cipher I may consider,which means a scroll would be only usable by a particular class as this does make sense to me. I even allow something like if the spell is on a characters spell list but the scroll is created by another class then an Arcana or relevant check could be made to use the scroll. This in my mind implies that the cipher for a spell is similar but not the same for each class but if you know the cipher for one you might be able to break it for another.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The way I imagine it, the ciphers were invented or discovered by individuals, and their use has been disseminated through time until we arrive at the present state of affairs. It makes sense to me that spellcasters that have different areas of expertise would have bodies of knowledge that are shared across disciplines, while others are passed down only through specific traditions.

I didn't make this very clear I even thought that as I was writing it. I guess to me if say Warlock and Wizard shared spells had one cipher and if Sorcerers had another spell which was in common with the other 2 classes it would be a different cipher, meaning from the original post their would be 67 different ciphers. This just didn't make sense to me felt way to 'clunky'. At some stage a Warlock and Wizard had to come up with a cipher usable by those 2 classes alone and then get a Sorcerer in for the next one. Which didn't doesn't seem realistic at all (of course everything else about the game obeys the laws of physics and common sense so why shouldn't this ).

I like the overall thinking but expect I will just have it running how it does now but will probably discus with my group and see what they think.

 

[Hriston]

You aren't wrong, I guess I just tend to think of a 'cipher' being intentionally obscure to hide something instead of more like music notation or math where it is written as clearly and concisely as can be for the idea being conveyed.

I can see glossing the word cipher that way, especially when it's a "mystical cipher", similar to what's meant when writing is described as "arcane" or "cryptic". I think it's an interesting take, but it also requires that the word read be glossed to mean understand, because you can read a book of technical jargon as long as it's written in your language, but you may not be able to understand it. I think glossing cipher as used in the Linguist feat in the same way is slightly problematic, but not insurmountably so.

 

[Hriston]

I voted "other", and I'm with Rossbert above. I think scrolls are written is a single magical language. Anyone with a familiarity with the language can read it, but you might not understand the concepts written.

For example, a wizard can tell that a cure wounds scroll is a healing magic, but they can't quite understand the fundamentals of manipulating body and spirit in such a delicate and combined way. Without that practical training, they might be able to read each and every sigil on the scroll - just as I could read every English word in an advanced discussion on quantum physics - but they're still not going to be able to summarize the document or form a conclusion.

I think that's a valid interpretation. I should have included an option in the poll for one mystic cipher, but it hadn't occurred to me. I think it relies on a slightly strained reading of the item description I quoted in the OP in that, under this interpretation, if the spell is not on your class's list, you can still read the scroll but can't cast the spell because what you read is unintelligible to you, which makes me wonder what the cipher is actually for. For example, the item description says nothing about the purpose of the cipher being to exclude non-spellcasters in general from reading the scroll or how a non-caster being unable to read the scroll is any different from a caster being able to read it but unable to cast from it because it is found to be unintelligible. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Hriston]

There are 3. One for each "type" of magic. Conceivably, if you wish to divy them up further, 6 if wishing to use specific magical/magic-using "languages."

The Divine Magic Ciphers: Celestial or Fiendish. Available to Clerics and Paladins of an appropriate alignment, Bards of any alignment. Possibly Warlocks of the appropriate patron.

The Arcane Magic Ciphers: "Arcanic/Magespeak/whatever your setting's incantations use" or Draconic. Available to Wizards (including Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters), Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Bards.

The Nature Magic Ciphers: SylvanFae/Elfish magic or Elemental magic. Available to Druids, Rangers, and Bards. Possibly Sorcerers of fae ancestry and/or Warlocks of fae patrons.

This is a cool way of categorizing magic, but I don't think it addresses the function of the mystical cipher as described in the spell scroll entry in the DMG. For example, if there are only one or two ciphers for divine magic, why can bards, clerics, and paladins all read, understand, and cast from a scroll of raise dead, while only bards and clerics can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of speak with dead, while only bards and paladins can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of heroism, and only clerics and paladins can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of dispel evil and good?

 

[steeldragons]

This is a cool way of categorizing magic, but I don't think it addresses the function of the mystical cipher as described in the spell scroll entry in the DMG. For example, if there are only one or two ciphers for divine magic, why can bards, clerics, and paladins all read, understand, and cast from a scroll of raise dead, while only bards and clerics can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of speak with dead, while only bards and paladins can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of heroism, and only clerics and paladins can read, understand, and cast from a scroll of dispel evil and good?

Oh ,well, yeah...You'd probably have to scrap that/houserule 'em. You have to put the type of magic as a real and actual thing in the game world.

So if a spell is on the cleric and paladin list, it is clearly a "divine magic" spell. If that doesn't appear on the Bard spell list...you can just say, you recognize the cipher but don't understand/can't cast the spell...which, for me strains a bit of credulity. Whereas a good paladin could look at a heroism scroll written by an evil priest, recognize it as a spell in Fiendish/unholy magic and be unable to use it...while a bard still could or an evil paladin could.

I'd probably just say, if it is a certain kind of "cipher" is the kind you could access, but the specific spell doesn't appear on your spell list, make a spellcasting ability check v. the scroll's DC (say something like 8 + spell level, assuming the scribner's ability/prof bonus is unknown) to figure it out/cast it properly. "Hmmm. I know this kind of magic. I've seen this sort of spell before but it's not one I've ever tried before...I can try..." <roll ability check> it works or it doesn't...and if you want to get interesting, throw a Wild Magic surge roll in there for a badly botched attempt.

The bard will never be able to "know/learn" Dispel Evil. The paladin will never be able to pray for Speak with Dead. etc... But they both can figure out how to use/cast it from a scroll.