Spell Turning: Did it get the shaft?

[Shard O'Glase]

I'm... not sure which abuse you're talking about...?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

I don't know probably things like this "Um. No offense ... okay, the truth is, I don't care if this gives offense or not ... but ... this is SO utterly laughable! You're neglecting a LOT of spells out there. You don't need to defend only against "save or die" or "save or take a bucketful of damage" spells.
" by Pax.

True not an offensive onslaught but still somewhat abusive.

 

[Piratecat]

It's certainly not polite - and I've chatted with Pax about the inappropriateness of this before - but it criticizes the idea, not the person raising the idea. Something like "you're utterly laughable" would be a personal attack.

Try to remain polite at all times, folks, even when you disagree with the other person.

In any case we're discussing this in Meta, so I'd like to return this thread to the original subject, please.

 

[Pax]

Here's the list of applicable spells, Pax:

Baleful Polymorph
Blindness/Deafness
Cause Fear
Chain Lightning
Charm Animal
Destruction
Dispel Magic
Dispel Magic, Greater
Doom
Finger of Death
Flesh to Stone
Geas/Quest
Gaes, Lesser
Horrid Wilting
Implosion
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Magic Jar
Magic Missile
Maze
Polymorph Any object
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Reduce Person
Reduce Person, Mass
Slow
Telekinesis
Trap the Soul
Weird

Quite an impressive list. Now consider how many non-Core spells could be (and probably WOULD be) added, in most campaigns. Especially Realms campaigns.

All of the asterisked spells in that list are blocked by mind blank, which, unlike ST, lasts all day, has no limit on the number of blocked spells, and is useful in lots of other ways, too.

And renders you inelegible to gain beneficial spells and effects that use such niceties as morale bonusses. I.e. the party bard's Inspire Courage, the cleric's Bless/Prayer, and so on.

Great. ONE application, that works probably no more than once, and requires that you prepare a precious 7th-level spell and cast it no longer than a few minutes prior to combat. It's not hugely underpowered, but it ain't exactly sexy, is it? I'd say let ST work on the RTA spells, at least. It creates a pretty mental picture (reflecting rays?) and doesn't exactly break the spell.

One among many. And against standard Dispel Magic (at 13th level, Greater Dispel gets all of a +3 bonus over the standard dispel ... hardly worth a 6th level slot when dispel isonly 3d level, wouldn't you agree?), it'll work at LEAST twice, maybe three times - ST turns an average of 7 or 8 levels per casting.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Impressive list or not, it's still less than 1/4 the number of possible attack spells out there; and, once mind blank comes into the picture, a smaller list on which to take the chance of having spell turning (as opposed to the bevy of lovely spells available at this level, including forcecage, reverse gravity, and greater teleport).

And renders you inelegible to gain beneficial spells and effects that use such niceties as morale bonusses. I.e. the party bard's Inspire Courage, the cleric's Bless/Prayer, and so on.

If you play MB this way, you've got other problems than spell turning issues. The spell "protects against" mind-affecting effects; I don't see anything in the spell description requiring the protected creature to ignore beneficial ones.

One among many. And against standard Dispel Magic (at 13th level, Greater Dispel gets all of a +3 bonus over the standard dispel ... hardly worth a 6th level slot when dispel isonly 3d level, wouldn't you agree?), it'll work at LEAST twice, maybe three times - ST turns an average of 7 or 8 levels per casting.

Ya can't have it both ways; either dispel magic is an effective tactic or it isn't. If it's only got a 35% chance of working in the first place, that dropping 5% for each level higher than 13th that this hypothetical wizard casting ST is in the first place, it's not really so scary as to militate spending a 7th-level spell slot all to its lonesome.

Again, Pax, I'm not saying that ST is useless; I'm just saying that it would still be a well-balanced spell, and more in line with the broader-application defensive spells out there, if it at least covered the more common single-target attacks like rays.

 

[Pax]

I think a better change would be, if anything to alter both the duration ("1 hour per level or until discharged" works just fine by me), and the levels turned ("1d6, +1 per 2 levels" also works fine by me).

Ya can't have it both ways; either dispel magic is an effective tactic or it isn't. If it's only got a 35% chance of working in the first place, that dropping 5% for each level higher than 13th that this hypothetical wizard casting ST is in the first place, it's not really so scary as to militate spending a 7th-level spell slot all to its lonesome.

Note that that is 35%, per spell in effect on the target. Once you hit 15th level, the extra +5 you could then get from Greater Dispel becomes worthwhile (IMO), so you jump back to 50% odds, straight through CL20.

And Dispel was brought up solely to point out that there were MORE spells than just a few save-or-die spells and a couple save-or-be-seriously-wounded spells, which Spell Turning could help protect against.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I think that a discussing of ST cannot exist in a vacuum. I'd like to discuss four powers that are available at around the same level of play:


1) spell resistance (cleric buff)
2) true seeing (cleric buff and/or item)
3) ring of counterspelling (item)
4) bead of karma (item)

With these spells and items, ST is pretty much obsolete.

SR is by far a better spell, especially since extend spell metamagic rods are relatively cheap.

True Seeing is a must. Every cleric should have this while adventuring. A mask of true seeing is 75000 gps. (Which is 300 castings or approximately 23 levels worth of protection.) This means that mirror image is obsolete.

A ring of counterspells for 4000 (or slotless for 8000) is a steal vs. dispel magic and gdm. Better yet, get two.

A bead of karma makes dispel magic even trickier.



I'd add spell girding, but that's non-core and MoF is not 3.5.

Baleful Polymorph
Blindness/Deafness
Cause Fear
Chain Lightning
Charm Animal
Destruction
Dispel Magic
Dispel Magic, Greater
Doom
Finger of Death
Flesh to Stone
Geas/Quest
Gaes, Lesser
Horrid Wilting
Implosion
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Magic Jar
Magic Missile
Maze
Polymorph Any object
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Reduce Person
Reduce Person, Mass
Slow
Telekinesis
Trap the Soul
Weird

Of which, SR protects against every spell for 38 minutes (bead of karma + extend spell rod at level 15) as a fifth level spell.

I'd much rather have my cleric buddy cast SR on me than waste one of my 7th level slots on ST.

Agreed, ST is kinda neat when it does work. Having a spell bounce off you is neat. But as a full time protection, it's just not up to par.
.
.
.
Nit pick: 3.5 ST is 1d4+6 or 8.5 average.

 

[Pax]

SR is by far a better spell, especially since extend spell metamagic rods are relatively cheap.

ST is guaranteed, SR is not. With items, PRC abilities, and feats, it's actually possible to have 1d20+level+10 for penetrating SR; so the Cleric's Level+12 SR is penetrated on a roll of 2 or better. *shrug*

True Seeing is a must. Every cleric should have this while adventuring. A mask of true seeing is 75000 gps. (Which is 300 castings or approximately 23 levels worth of protection.) This means that mirror image is obsolete.

... without support from Nondetection.

 

[Merlion]

Well, Spell Turning is guaranteed to a point. Its not guaranteed to affect anything above 7th level. Its not guaranteed to affect more than one spell.
Spell Resistance doesnt neccesarily work against every spell cast against you. But, it works against any level of spell, automatically, and it works against all spells that it affects that are cast against you for its duration.
If you compare the number of spells that are subject to Spell Resistance to the number of spells subject to Spell Turning you will see a massive disparity.
Now, I am not trying to say that the spell Spell Resistance is a more powerful spell than Spell Turning, as written. Nor am I saying that Spell Turning should affect every spell subject to spell resistance.
There are two main factors that lead me to feel that Spell Turning has problems as a 7th level spell. The biggest is its extremely narrow focus (especially when you consider, as Ruleslawyer pointed out that many of the few spells Spell Turning does affect can be more effectively defended against by other means). The next is its small overall affect. One high level spell or two or three low level ones.
I am not looking for total immunity to all magic, or anything else of the kind.
Greatly increasing the number of spell levels it will affect would improve it slightly. Increasing that slightly, and also slightly increasing its range of affect (include rays and touch spells) is what would I think really make it what it should be.


There are certain things (like Wail of the Banshee) that it shouldnt affect (I brought up WOTB because one of the great defenses for spell turning has always been to say its a mage's best defense again death magic...I was pointing out that theres actually only a few death spells it even does affect).
But turning Finger of Death, and even turning Dispel Magic, just doesnt cut it for the 7th level slot, for me. My wizard never took the spell. If I played a wizard tomarrow, I dont know that he'd both with it...because not all enemy mages are going to use death spells or Dispel Magic.


Besides which, as ruleslawyer has said, some of these things would just make for some nice imagery. Like a turned Disintegrate

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

ST is guaranteed, SR is not. With items, PRC abilities, and feats, it's actually possible to have 1d20+level+10 for penetrating SR; so the Cleric's Level+12 SR is penetrated on a roll of 2 or better. *shrug*

We are talking about a normal game, right? So there may be one NPC in the entire game with that level of spell penetration. Every other NPC is stuck with SP and possibly GSP.

The other +6 that you are getting from mysterious sources does not really matter, IMHO.


Besides, the bead of karma boosts the cleric's SR by four. I also forgot the orange ioun stone. I'd add in spell girding (effectively making it +2SR), but then I might have to add something from another non-core source, so I'll leave that out.

This is also neglecting that most NPCs are lower caster level in the first place. (Unless your campaign is abnormal)

So say a PC cleric has 12 +cl +5 (bead of karma and orange ioun stone, both core)

The NPC would have 1d20 +cl +4 (SP and GSP)

17 to 14.5 if their caster levels are the same. PC Cleric wins 57.5% of the time. A fifth level spell that has that level of protection versus almost every attack spell is pretty stinking good. Better than the one spell you get from spell turning. So if you get targeted by two spells a day while SR is up, you are a bit better than ST, three and you are superior.

At high levels, are you targetted by three or more spells in 38 minutes? Heck ya!

All from a fifth level spell.

That's also assuming that the caster levels are the same. (Which would mean one caster at your level for a balanced encounter. Two casters of your level would be overpowering.) Most encounters have casters that are 1 or more caster levels lower than the PCs.

... without support from Nondetection.

Of which a PC cleric has a better than average chance of ignoring, considering a PC is generally a higher caster level than NPCs, the bead of karma, and the orange ioun stone.

And anyway, True Seeing says it sees through illusions. Mirror Image creates illusions. Nondetection effects a creature or an object, not the mirror images surrounding you. (At least, that's my interpretation of it.)

Hence why I deem mirror image obsolete.

Nondetection
The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate
object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted
against the warded creature or item,

Mirror Image
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments
stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments
separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and
through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is
you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to
cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll
randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An
image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking
like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are
again confounded.


True Seeing
sees through illusions,

 

[strongbow]

There is a metagame consideration here. Since most BBEG are going to be higher level than the characters, and thus have more caster level, spell turning one of the BBEG's dispel/greater dispels against him has a greater effect than if a PC cast dispel/greater dispel. The extra caster level that the BBEG works against him. You could even view Spell Turning as a Quickened Greater Dispel Magic with a caster level bonus of X, depending on your BBEG.

Spell Turning is good a lot of the time, but not all the time. If you know you are going to fight your spellcasting nemisis, it rocks. Put the spell into perspective, and realize that you may not cast it everyday.