Spell Turning: Did it get the shaft?

[Thanee]

And while I understand your metaphor, their arent really phases of spellcasting in DnD. Spell Turning and Spell Resistance work in the same fashion, one is just much more limited than the other.

Well, the rules work like this, so it's just my way of explaining, why they do.

There surely are no such explicit phases, but spells can be split up into them, with the information from the PHB alone.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

An interesting discussion.

In the light of the various arguments one way and another I think for my campaign I'll house-rule spell turning so that it will also turn rays and touch spells.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

n.b. Horrid Wilting has been identified as spell-turnable. If a wizard casts horrid wilting on 3 characters and they all have spell turning, will he be injured by each of the horrid wiltings turning on him (16d6x3) or just once for the one spell?

Cheers

 

[Thanee]

Good question... I'd say each, since he didn't pick himself as a target (obviously), the part, that every target can only be targetted once doesn't really apply here. He'd also have to save against each effect seperately.

I'd just see it as individual spell effects, not just one spell.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dark Dragon]

Yup, I'd see it the same way. ST is written something like this (when a spell is turned): The spell targeting you is turned back to the opponent. I don't know the exact wording here. So, it seems that a wizard throwing a Horrid Wilting at three guys with ST on will end up with a dry mouth...

 

[Dark Dragon]

Not all that sizable. It only turns Targeted spells with a range greater than Touch. Thats a very narrow spectrum. And about half the spells it does affect (various Charm, Dominate and Hold spells and the like) are spells your probably not going to cast on a mage anyway, and that one spell level later the mage can be totaly immune to, all day, via Mind Blank.

Yep, and that's why I don't like Mind Blank... But that's irrelevant here. A wizard at level 13 won't cast MB (unless he has a scroll with MB), so ST would be a good choice against Charm Monster or a heightened Hold/Dominate Person.

The only spells it affects that a mage is likely to have cast on him, and that he cant easily defend against with lower level spells, are Finger of Death, Destruction, Implosion, Power Word Kill, and Baleful Polymorph, and Dispel Magic. It does not affect: Touch range spells of any kind, Effect spells, and Area spells. And it only turns about 8 levels of spells on average. And these catagories include many wonderful anti mage spells like: Disintegrate, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee, the Inflict spells, Harm, Energy Drain, and Enervation for example.

Yes. These spells are wonderful mage-killers because they call for a Fort save AND unfortunately, arcane casters have a weakness here. I'd say this is either a spell problem (wanted or unwanted) or it is part of the system. Wizards are good in offensive spells and have a good assortment of defensive spells. However, they're not good in physical things and can't tough things out like a fighter. They have only a d4 as HD and their weak toughness is represented in a bad Fort save.

If you want to get around the problem that a wizard is often attacked with spells calling for a fort save (the same for a cleric and ref saves and fighter and thieves with their bad will saves) is to use a flexible spell DC. It's quite simple: spell level + INT Bonus (or WIS or CHA for the other classes) + 1d20 = spell DC.

Just my 2 cents to a fixed save DC...

It needs to affect Effect spells, or at least Rays, and Touch spells. It still wont turn area spells, which eliminates the majority of damage dealing spells, and even a few other nasty's like Wail of the Banshee.

Hm, although it is indeed easier to imagine a turned ray of Disintegrate, I stick with Thanee's explanation of spell effects.
IMO, a wizard should always rely on his friends in challenging encounters. If he is able to defend himself alone (and win fights singlehandedly, even if they'd be a challenge for non-wizards), things get boring, as it was the case with high level AD&D wizards. That was at least my experience.

EDIT: Clarification, stupid typo...

 

[Merlion]

A wizard at level 13 won't cast MB (unless he has a scroll with MB), so ST would be a good choice against Charm Monster or a heightened Hold/Dominate Person.

These are not spells I see as being used against mages much, because of the high likelyhood of them making there saving throws.
Especially when you consider mind-affecting affect defenes are very common.

If you want to get around the problem that a wizard is often attacked with spells calling for a fort save (the same for a cleric and ref saves and fighter and thieves with their bad will saves) is to use a flexible spell DC. It's quite simple: spell level + INT Bonus (or WIS or CHA for the other classes) + 1d20 = spell DC.

I think your misunderstanding me. I only brought that up because many defend spell turning by saying its the mage's best defense against death magic/save-or-die spells. I was merely pointing out that there are numerous of those affects that it doesnt work on due to its extreme limitation.

IMO, a wizard should always rely on his friends in challenging encounters. If he is able to defend himself alone (and win fights singlehandedly, even if they'd be a challenge for non-wizards), things get boring, as it was the case with high level AD&D wizards. That was at least my experience.

But wizards already have to rely on others for a great deal. they have very little physical defense (none inherent, and not even that many deccent physical defense spells especially at low to mid levels). And they dont even get most of the best magical defense magic.
Besides which, what if your party doesnt include a Cleric to cast Death Ward or Spell Resistance or Spell Immunity? (although thats also the seperate issue of how absurd it is that Clerics are the only class that get those three spells).

However the targeting does or doesnt work doesnt really matter. My point is: Spell Turning's effects have to many limitations to warrant 7th level. To be 7th level, it should defend against rays and the like, and touch spells, instead of only a small fraction of spells.

 

[Tyrol]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if a you have Spell Turning up and "you are targeted by a spell of higher level than the amount of spell turning available, that spell is partially turned." Partial turning is very useful, as that first spell that targets you (subject to Spell Turning), no matter what spell level it was or what you rolled on your 1d4+6, is extremely likely to be turned back at the caster.

Example: Say you cast Spell Turning, and worst case scenario you roll a 1 on your d4, giving you 7 levels of Spell Turning. Sometime during the next battle, a BBEG decides to cast Power Word Kill on you, a level 9 spell. You get a partial spell turn, and you now have only a 2/9 chance (about 22%) of dying to Power Word Kill while the BBEG has a massive 78% of killing himself on your reflected spell (provided he's below 101 hp's). Those aren't bad odds, considering you may be as low as level 13 and BBEG is at least 17th level.

Now, the above example is highly situational and very unlikely (most DMs aren't likely to fire off Power Word Kill at you when they know you have Spell Turning up, especially if they've invested alot of time in creating the BBEG, even though that could technically be "DM/NPC meta-gaming." A meta-gaming DM might also take his BBEG's HP into account, haha).

All that being said, I personally think Spell Turning is underpowered for its level. As someone who plays a Sorcerer and recently gained access to level 7 spells, Spell Turning didn't even make the list of spells I was CONSIDERING. With a cleric in the party, there are far better choices. So yah, I gave an example that made Spell Turning look powerful but then said I think it's underpowered. However, I don't know that I would change it without official errata. There are lots of underpowered spells.

 

[Maldur]

I just like the suprise the enemy spellcaster gets when his own spell is effected upon himself.

"take that! nasty PC!"
"oh, crap"
""auch, arghh"
*keels over*

 

[Thanee]

Or yourself... I remember a certain Feeblemind spell being thrown back on my poor wizard once.

Bye
Thanee