"Spell X counters and dispels spell Y" ??

[Tatsukun]

Hi all, I need another quote for backup on my rules opinion (or maybe a smackdown if I’m wrong). This is all coming from a disagreement over what it means when it says “ Spell X xounters and dispels spell Y” at the bottom of a spell description.

Lets say…

Jimmy the Cleric casts “bless” on his party, including Urg the ugly dwarf.

The next round, Bill the evil cleric casts “bane” on the same party (also including Urg).

Which correctly describes what happens…

1)Urg makes a saving throw, if he fails he in under the effects of doom, which when added to his bless means he’s back to normal. But, he is under the effects of two first level spells (maybe important with dispel magic).

2)The Doom “counters and dispels” the bless, no save involved. Urg is no longer under the effects of any spell.

3)The Doom “counters and dispels” the bless only if Urg fails his save. Urg is no longer under the effects of any spell.

4)Something else.


-Thanks
-Tatsu

 

[Scion]

Sounds like 2 to me

You cast it in some area, and it dispels any of its opposite in the area.

 

[FireLance]

To me, "counters" means X can be used to counterspell Y (and vice-versa) as per the standard rules for counterspelling. If Bill had readied himself to counterspell Jimmy (and made the necessary checks), his Bane would have countered Jimmy's Bless even though they are technically not the same spell.

To me, "dispels" means X can be used to dispel Y much as if X was the spell Dispel Magic (but only for spell Y). I'm currently leaning toward the position that a dispel check is required instead of allowing the dispel to be automatic. Of course, if X and Y are exact opposites, the spellcaster could always choose to affect the usual targets instead of taking the dispel option and effectively negate the effect of the earlier spell by doing so.

 

[Scion]

I take it to mean that, under normal circumstances, a character cannot have both cast on him at once.

A character under the effects of slow has haste cast on them, they now have neither.

A characer is under the effects of haste and has slow cast on them, they now have neither.

There isnt even another option, if they have one on them then it will cancel and dispel

 

[Camarath]

Is it not also possible that Bane could both dispell all Bless spells on its targets and produce its normal effect?

 

[dcollins]

I believe it's #2, and I think there is a FAQ entry clarifying that.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It's #2. We forced the FAQ entry when we argued this like mad on RGFD.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Is it not also possible that Bane could both dispell all Bless spells on its targets and produce its normal effect?

No, because bless also "counters and dispels" bane. Whenever the two meet, they cancel each other out, like matter and anti-matter. Well, without the big 'splosion.

 

[Tatsukun]

I'm not seeing anything in the 3.5 FAQ, can someone point me to the ruling please?

Thanks

-Tatsu

 

[Spatula]

Page 50 of the 3.0 FAQ:

Q: When an opposite spell is used to negate an effect that is already in place (such as using slow spell to counter and
dispel a haste spell), is the success of the dispel automatic, or is a level check required? Does the subject or the caster of the spell being countered and dispelled get a saving throw?
A: Two opposite spells simply negate each other. No dispel check is required, no saving throw is allowed, and spell resistance does not apply.