Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[Grog]

This issue was brought up in the Sorcerer topic, but I wanted to talk about it some more. I really don't think the idea of PrC's for spellcasters is balanced. The reason being, spellcasters really don't sacrifice much of anything for taking a PrC that gives +1 caster level per PrC level.

Think about it. If a barbarian wants to take a PrC, he'll have to sacrifice some of his rage uses, some of his damage reduction, some of his uncanny dodge, and possibly his greater rage as well. A rogue who takes a PrC will be sacrificing some of his rogue special abilities and possibly some of his sneak attack damage. A fighter will be giving up a lot of extra feats. A monk who takes a PrC will be giving up his high level monk special abilities.

But if you're a cleric, and you take a PrC, and you get to keep your spell progression... What are you really giving up? Sure, you'll be less effective at turning undead, but that's not that big a deal. Same for wizards and sorcerers. If they get to keep their spells, they aren't really sacrificing anything to take a PrC.

This doesn't seem fair to me. Most of the non-spellcasting classes are making a tradeoff when they take a PrC. Sure, the abilities of the PrC will probably be better than the core class abilities they gave up, but they still had to sacrifice something. Spellcasters don't have to make that same choice, at least with many PrCs.

Opinions?

 

[mikebr99]

you're correct Grog. Which is why all PrCs are optional and at the mercy of the DM.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But if you're a cleric, and you take a PrC, and you get to keep your spell progression... What are you really giving up? Sure, you'll be less effective at turning undead, but that's not that big a deal.

.. .and in some cases, you don't even lose that...

-Hyp.

 

[haiiro]

One of my friends pointed out to me that the PHB sorcerer has no reason not to take a PrC that includes "+1 level of spellcasting class" among its abilities as soon as possible. I tend to agree with him: the sorcerer gets the worst BAB, skill points and hit die, B/B/G saves, and no special abilities whatsoever (outside of being able to have a familiar).

The wizard at least gets bonus feats and the option to take Spell Mastery, while the cleric has better BAB, HD, skill points and saves to start with, and improves his turning ability as he goes up in level.

With the Monte Cook sorcerer, there's at least some incentive to stay a sorcerer: better HD, more skill points and a better skill list. It's not a whole lot of incentive, but at least it's there -- taking a spellcasting PrC will probably mean trading down at least one of those three things.

I do tend to look very closely at spellcasting PrCs that offer "+1 level of spellcasting class" at every level and special abilities. High or sub-optimal entry requirements -- or providing spellcaster levels only every other level, or even less often -- help to balance this out, but I agree that there's a high potential for imbalance inherent in spellcasting PrCs.

 

[Xarlen]

But a barbarian can still rage, and his BAB goes up, and so on. A spellcaster is... A spell caster. What exactly else are they supposed to do OTHER then cast spells? If they lose their spell progression, then they're pretty much FUBARed when it comes to other situations.

Look at the Shifter PrC. You lose spell progression. But you get a Lot More to Compensate. However, other PrCs just aren't going to compensate for high level spells (Or mid level, seeing as you enter at 5th level) for their powers.

 

[nameless]

The problem with not giving +1 spellcasting level is that most abilities that can be granted are something that more spellcasting levels can replicate. Take the Mindbender PrC in T&B. Really, only the Friends Forever and Thrall abilities are something that a Wizard/Sorceror can't easily do with their own spells (Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, Charm Monster with size limit, Dominate Monster with size limit, and Mass Charm). Telepathy has very little impact on balance, but some "cool factor" that is worth something. The skill bonuses aren't a standard spell, but it would only take a level 1 or 2 spell to replicate those for hours per day.

So you look at what you get for those 4 sacrificed levels of spelcasting progression, and it's basically preselecting a few spells that you must prepare every day. Overall, a wizard without a PrC already has most of the abilities of this class, they just aren't written as "cool [Su] abilities." You look at Acolyte of the Skin, and it's pretty much the same thing. You sacrifice versatile spellcasting levels for preset abilities that a spell can easily replicate. Blood Magus is better, but the best ability gained by the class is easily the Blood Component at first level, which negates all the costly components for the really powerful spells that aren't necessarily used in combat, like perhaps Trap the Soul.

Going through the rest of just T&B, it's pretty clear which PrCs are decent and which are underpowered.

Alienist: Full progression, little sacrifice, probably a tad overpowered, but barely.
Arcane Trickster: Very good, but steep requirements. Still should have reduced spellcasting.
Candle Caster: Probably fine. All the abilities are minor and require crafted candles, which cost money, xp, and time.
Elemental Savant: Pretty good, but balance is good too. The requirements are strict, and the actual gain is small.
Fatespinner: A great PrC. Sacrifices some spellcasting for abilities that aren't copied by other spells.
Mage of the Arcane Order: Too powerful. The power of the class is supposedly balanced by a roleplaying drawback, which is a no-no.
Pale Master: Fair class. Necromancy is arguably weak, but for someone who wants to focus on it, the class is balanced against straight Wiz levels.
Spellsword: Not too powerful. You sacrifice a lot of fighter bonus feats for what is basically a reduction in Spell Failure. Wizards can get a decent AC without armor, so this is mainly flavor.
True Necromancer: Funky crossover class. Probably fine, since very few class abilities are gained.

My conclusion is that classes like Fatespinner, Candle Caster and Spellsword are the best (from a design perspective) prestige classes for spellcasters. They give abilities that mesh with previous and future spellcasting, instead of replacing the would-be highest spellcasting levels with set, nonscaleable abilities.

 

[Destil]

This is one of the few things I kinda blame Monte Cook over. Most of his example Prc's I'm okay with, but the loremaster is almost a free ride for a sorcerer and a complete no-brainer for a diviner. Eventually the designers setteled on reducing the spellcasting progression for most spell based Prc's, but there are still some flaws.

That said, I have some ideas myself on things to do to amend this to some degree with my own prcs.

 

[Grog]

Eventually the designers setteled on reducing the spellcasting progression for most spell based Prc's, but there are still some flaws.

There really doesn't seem to be too much in the way of middle ground here. Either the PrC gets full spell progression, in which case there's basically no down side to taking it, or it has limited or no spell progression, in which case it cripples the character (except in very rare circumstances like the Shifter).

If you take a 10 level PrC that gives +1 caster level/2 PrC levels, you end up being a 15th level caster at level 20. Not only will you never get 9th level spells, but you'll have a lot of other problems (your dispelling won't be very effective, enemy casters can dispel you with ease, you'll have a hard time penetrating SR, etc.)

You'd have to get some pretty powerful special abilities to make up for essentially being 5 levels lower than the rest of the party. It's really tough to design a class like that, IMO.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Dominate Monster has a size limit? D'oh!

 

[nameless]

Dominate Monster has a size limit? D'oh!

Er, no. The Mindbender's specials only work on creatures of size Large or smaller. Charm Monster and Dominate Monster don't have this limitation.