Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[dravot]

This is a problem that I'm experiencing with my main character. He's a cleric with a Hunter of the Dead variant PrC, which gets an extra caster level every other level, so he's currently 3 levels behind the party when it comes to casting spells.

He gets some nifty anti-undead abilities, and I love it for the role-playing aspect, but he just turned 17th level and can't do any of the 9th level spells. Compared with the party wizard, I feel truly gimped in the caster category (but he excels at killing undead, which is cool and what he's about).

 

[Mort]

Compared with the party wizard, I feel truly gimped in the caster category.

The real question then becomes, do the other abilities you get make up for the loss in caster levels (looking at the totality of the circumstances). If the answer is yes, then it certainly wouldn’t be very fair for you to have those abilities AND full caster level. This is why every caster PrC needs to be looked at very carefully.

 

[dravot]

The real question then becomes, do the other abilities you get make up for the loss in caster levels (looking at the totality of the circumstances). If the answer is yes, then it certainly wouldn’t be very fair for you to have those abilities AND full caster level. This is why every caster PrC needs to be looked at very carefully.

In his case, it is balanced, I believe (which is not to say that I'm not frustrated with my inability to keep up spell-wise, just that I understand about it and try to keep my whining to a minimum ). My DM (WizarDru) believes (and I tend to agree with him) that a PrC should be about choices and tradeoffs: if you have to think hard about whether to take a prestige class, you're doing it right. If there's no reason NOT to take it, then there's a problem.

Luckily for me, I have a solution to most of my caster level problems, a bead of karma. It won't solve my spell gap, but takes care of beating SR and the like.

 

[Xarlen]

Well, I think it would depend.

Some classes are very paticular in when the abilities can come into play.

Imagine if the Arcane Trickster's spell progression was only one in every two. Now, his powers revolve around spell sneak attacking, and spell roguing.

He can't exactly sneak attack everything in the book. Nor can he always get the jump on others. And he isn't useful in a lot of other areas, so... is he getting gyped?

Look at the Hunter of the Dead. If the party is constantly fighting Undead, then yes, this would be a kickass class. However, if they do not, then no, it would lesuck, if they lose spell progression.

 

[dravot]

Well, I think it would depend.

Some classes are very paticular in when the abilities can come into play.

Imagine if the Arcane Trickster's spell progression was only one in every two. Now, his powers revolve around spell sneak attacking, and spell roguing.

He can't exactly sneak attack everything in the book. Nor can he always get the jump on others. And he isn't useful in a lot of other areas, so... is he getting gyped?

Clearly a matter of opinion, but he's still gaining sneak dice and he's still getting spell levels, just not as fast. It'd merely shift his emphasis a bit more toward roguing.

I'd have to think about it, but I'd prolly do something like give the PrC 6 caster levels spread over the 10 PrC levels, and drop the number of sneak dice done as well. At least that'd be my initial concept if I were to re-write the class.

Look at the Hunter of the Dead. If the party is constantly fighting Undead, then yes, this would be a kickass class. However, if they do not, then no, it would lesuck, if they lose spell progression.

That'd mostly depend on the DM and the campaign being run, but yes, it would lesuck.

 

[Xarlen]

Why drop the sneak attack dice down? It advances as rogue.

 

[Grog]

IMO the Arcane Trickster is one of the most powerful PrC's out there.

Not only do you get special, PrC specific abilities, but you essentially get to advance as a Rogue and a Wizard/Sorcerer at the same time.

I haven't seen one played long enough to know if it's truly out of balance, but it certainly seems like it could be.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why drop the sneak attack dice down? It advances as rogue.

I imagine that's the point.

Take a hypothetical class with full BAB progression and a fighter's bonus feats, plus some spellcasting.

"Why drop the rate of bonus feats? It advances as a fighter."

Because it's as good as a fighter, plus. It's better than a fighter. It's taking what the fighter shines at, and doing just as well, with extras thrown in... and that's not fair.

Now, admittedly, the AT gets fewer skill points than a rogue. But its SA progresses just as fast as the rogue, and on top of that, it has a full spellcasting progression.

I had someone wanted to play a Hospitaller in a game I run. Full BAB progression, full spellcasting progression, full turn undead progression... it takes everything a cleric can do and adds a fighter's BAB.

And to balance that? Roleplaying restrictions.

Yeah, okay.

-Hyp.

 

[Destil]

There really doesn't seem to be too much in the way of middle ground here. Either the PrC gets full spell progression, in which case there's basically no down side to taking it, or it has limited or no spell progression, in which case it cripples the character (except in very rare circumstances like the Shifter).

If you take a 10 level PrC that gives +1 caster level/2 PrC levels, you end up being a 15th level caster at level 20. Not only will you never get 9th level spells, but you'll have a lot of other problems (your dispelling won't be very effective, enemy casters can dispel you with ease, you'll have a hard time penetrating SR, etc.)

You'd have to get some pretty powerful special abilities to make up for essentially being 5 levels lower than the rest of the party. It's really tough to design a class like that, IMO.

In general I think that this is a better solution, like having a 5/10 to 8/10 and mabye in a rare case 9/10 or 10/10 class.

The problems I mention is that any class that advances anything 'as the previous class' is going to be hard to balance. Clerical Prc's that allow wizards in give a big HD boost, usualy. And you can't build an effective PRC for a ranger or such that keeps spell casting, because it makes things too good for a wizard or cleric.

One thing I think should happen is that if you only get 1/2 spellcasting level you souldn't be stuck with wizard HD and BAB, you should most likely go up to the d6 at least. After all, you're typicaly only 1/2 a wizard for thoes levels. More skill points would also be a good general balance.

My, personal, solution is that some things need to advance as the base class along with spells, HD perhaps. There should also be prcs that advance as 1 caster level / 2 levels in the previous class, written such that a cleric would get a 1/2 spellcasting progression and the ranger would get 1/1 (since they have an effective spellcaster level of 1/2 their level).

 

[Destil]

mispost