FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
IMO this shows the conceptual issue I keep bringing up. Right now the Battlemaster due to being the only Leader in town covers every leader concept from mediocre leader to elite leader. By insisting that a better mechanical leader exist you are not increasing conceptual space, so much transferring some of the Fighters conceptual space to the 'Warlord'.You are only a great martial leader because nothing else exists! People are saying that Battlemaster leader shouldn’t be the weakness of a martial leader. The peakness of a martial leader should and can be much more, and you need to get to those levels to model certain fictional concepts and stay reasonably balanced as a game construct. So, yes, once you raise the bar on leadership you no longer can be both elite warrior and elite leader for balance sake.
This is why concepts shouldn't get thought of in terms of better or worse - because for every mechanical representation of a concept, we can always think of one better or one worse.
If you get how that diminishes the concept then you can see why that is a big loss.I kinda get how this diminishes your concept, but since the current implementation of "elite martial leader" wasn't that great, I don't see it as a big loss to move that to average or good fictional leadership positioning.
I think it's a design choice sums this up very nicely.People don't get to have concepts where they are both elite warriors and elite spellcasters either. It's a design choice that opens up the Elite leadership/good fighting concept I guess at the expense of Elite leadership / Elite Warrior concept. But since the current Elite Leader concept implementation is pretty lame, we are just losing some relative status.
I think happy is the wrong word. Serviceable is better.You still have the Elite Fighter/good leader Battlemaster, which apparently a bunch of people are happy with anyway.
It's not my only objection. It's one of many.So is this your actual objection, and you actually do understand the concept of leader first/Warlord prime or not? If so, this objection is something I kinda understand. If you still don't understand the concept of leader first, we probably just don't have enough common ground to have any real discussion.
Let me phrase it this way. Conceptually, what makes a Battlemaster focused on leadership Manuevers not a 'leader first'?
Why surprised? I've said many times I don't think battlemaster manuevers do a great job mechanically for a leader. Too many here have conflated my position on mechanics with my position on concept.Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you and ECMO3 are still fighting the concept of leader first/Warlord Prime given you both seemed to have engaged with Undrave's Warlord homebrew in good faith. It may not be your thing and you may never use it but you seemed to get what he was trying to do?
While being able to fulfill the concept due to getting most all of the mechanical tools that are needed the battlemaster's leadership abilities fail to deliver as cohesive of a package around the concept of martial leader that I would like.
What I'm arguing about here is that there are pros and cons to trying to fix this 'problem' via the addition of another class and that maybe this is just a flaw of 5e that no good viable solution exists for. I'd bet you that most involved in this discussion have tried to create their own warlords in years past. I know I have. But that's because I was treating classes as a package of mechanics instead of concept first. So yes, I understand and I'm saying there is another way to think about things.
Sure, and I'd love for it to work out for him. Homebrew serves a different purpose than official classes IMO.I haven't looked it over in detail, but Undrave's homebrew seems to be trying to create a leader first/Warlord Prime class that can't be recreated well using current other classes/subclasses. With its Shouts, etc. it seems like a character where you are a better leader than the Battlemaster in exchange for some fighting prowess.
I'm saying that concepts shouldn't really be qualified with 'elite' or 'good'. IMO Concepts just exist independent of their relative 'eliteness' or 'goodness'. Then hybrid concepts are just some mixture of 2 concepts. EK is an example of this. Bladesinger might be as well.It's hard to see where you are actually coming from because half the time you seem to just not acknowledge the leader first concept (which basically means there is no conversation) and then sometimes you do, but you are worried about relative positioning of the Battlemaster leader or balance between casters and martials (which are more interesting things we can talk about once the Elite leader / good warrior concept is acknowledged).
But unlike the EK, the 'Warlord' in any conception isn't a hybrid of leader only and warrior only, he's always a warrior that's a leader.