D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[CleverNickName]

Custom lineage with a half feat is the only way to get an 18 at level 1.

If getting an 18 is of upmost importance as you imply then you should never play a race other than custom lineage.

Or you can roll your stats with the 4d6 method. (Remember, the point buy is an optional rule, not the game default.)

 

[loverdrive]

Frank Caste in plate is a perfectly valid paladin concept. Also a fighter by no means need to be a defender, they can be focusing mostly on dealing damage; that is conceptually perfectly valid. In 4e they had to add a completely flavourless slayer class to fulfil that. Pigeonholing classes, that should be evocative thematic archetypes into some rigid MMO roles is simply a terrible idea. That sort of bland gamey nonsense is why 4e got rejected and unfortunately some good innovations with it.

Or maybe you're just supposed to come up with a concept first and pick the appropriate class later.

 

[Flamestrike]

Feats are optional.

I knew you would say that.

Point being most tables allow them (including AL, mine and likely yours as well) and they're right there as a solution to the 'fighters can only fight' argument as a class feature for fighters.

Nothing wrong with ruling ONLY fighters can take Feats (and maybe also Rogues) either seeing as they're both supposed to be the 'feat guys'.

Guess what happens when you allow them? Fighter players tend to take ones that make them better at fighting (GWM, SS, PAM, Sentinel etc) because people who tend to play fighters, just want to fight good.

 

[Flamestrike]

Vengeance Paladins are still a warrior, just not a DPS warrior. Paladins, strangely enough, protect people. Like they're good guys or something instead of Frank Castle in plate.

Err no. Vengeance Paladins are strikers.

Bonus action advantage on all attacks, plus divine smite, plus Hunters mark = bonkers DPS.

 

[Flamestrike]

Frank Caste in plate is a perfectly valid paladin concept.

LE Vengeance Paladin.

Lawful because he fights for Law and Order, is disciplined, honorable, determined, relentless and rigid in his thinking.

Evil because he murders, tortures, beats up, kills and slaughters those he deems in need of vengeance without mercy, pity or remorse.

(LN in the Marvel TV series; they really missed a trick there)

 

[Flamestrike]

Isn't one of the complaints about the Ranger that it trivializes much of the Exploration pillar?

It trivializes a pillar that is often handwaved via montage unlike social or combat encounters.

DM 1: 'Ok, after a few weeks travel through the wilderness you reach your destination...'

(Ranger player sulks in the corner)

Alternatively:

ToA DM: (eagerly lays down player map) 'Ok, this is a hexcrawl, what pace are you travelling at; note the Jungle is difficult terrain so your speed is halv...?'
Ranger: 'Nope. I and the whole party ignore difficult terrain in my favored terrain, and and move at a normal pace, stealthily.'
DM: 'Err OK, well you need to make a Survival check or you get lost and randomly enter a different hex...'
Ranger: No need, I cant get lost in my favored terrain.
DM 2: 'Well make a Survival roll to forage and find water; clean water is hard to find...'
Ranger: 'No need, I'm an outlander so I automatically get all the food and water I need for the whole party'.
DM: (throws hex map on the table angrily) 'Well after a few weeks travel through the wilderness, you reach your destination...'

 

[tetrasodium]

It trivializes a pillar that is often handwaved via montage unlike social or combat encounters.

DM 1: 'Ok, after a few weeks travel through the wilderness you reach your destination...'

(Ranger player sulks in the corner)

Alternatively:

ToA DM: (eagerly lays down player map) 'Ok, this is a hexcrawl, what pace are you travelling at; note the Jungle is difficult terrain so your speed is halv...?'
Ranger: 'Nope. I and the whole party ignore difficult terrain in my favored terrain, and and move at a normal pace, stealthily.'
DM: 'Err OK, well you need to make a Survival check or you get lost and randomly enter a different hex...'
Ranger: No need, I cant get lost in my favored terrain.
DM 2: 'Well make a Survival roll to forage and find water; clean water is hard to find...'
Ranger: 'No need, I'm an outlander so I automatically get all the food and water I need for the whole party'.
DM: (throws hex map on the table angrily) 'Well after a few weeks travel through the wilderness, you reach your destination...'

I often wonder how so many "nope that's unacceptable gameplay" type design decisions unapologetically made it into such an obvious character concept

 

[Neonchameleon]

The problem is that my answer to whether spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat is dependent on whether we are talking the fighter or the rogue. If we're talking balance across multiple pillars (social, exploration, and combat) then the fighter has gone all-in on the combat pillar, while the rogue should be at least able to play hard in one of the other pillars and probably both. As the fighter has very little expertise in the other pillars they should be better at combat than more flexible characters like either the rogue or any spellcaster.

The next problem I have is that fighters aren't real world fighters - they are wielding boffer swords. A relatively low level fighter (or for that matter a rogue) should, on a good hit to heart or head be able to one shot an ogre (59hp). Yes, ogres are big and strong - but they aren't steel and do have anatomy. Meanwhile thanks to hit point mechanics D&D fighters are far less dangerous than trained real world warriors wielding cold steel. And let's not get started on how relatively ineffective mundane armour, especially plate, has been since 3.0. Also as people have mentioned even the level 20 fighter can't match up to real world people physically.

And then there's the question "If everyone else is mythological should the high level fighter even exist as a face-tanking archetype?" My conception of a high level fighter is someone like Hercules or Cu-Chulain. Mythological and larger than life. There is space for a super-normal Batman equivalent, but it shouldn't be the class with the second highest hit points in the game. Instead it should be the class that exists by wits, speed, and trying not to be seen - in other words a "mundane" 20th level character should be a rogue and not a fighter.

 

[Aldarc]

laughs in Central Asian

sobs uncontrollably in Carrhae

I think the following design specifications sit in tension with one another:

* Any player of this game should be able to have big effects on how the game unfolds;

* This game should be fun for players who enjoy intricate, technical manipulation of game rules that are spread over multiple interacting game elements;

* This game should be playable, in the full sense of that word in the context of this game, by players who don't care for complex rules and rules interactions and just want to play a warrior who is strong and hits things.

Hence the Battlemaster and Champion. The latter subclass is more popular - though it's hard to say if it's just the result of it being the free-to-play version - and the former is the second most popular and generally also the most widely recommended and positively received.

 

[Flamestrike]

A relatively low level fighter (or for that matter a rogue) should, on a good hit to heart or head be able to one shot an ogre (59hp).

They can.

Hit point reduction are not 'wounds'. They represent resolve, luck, the will to live, fighting skill and vitality. The Ogre can be losing hit points from damage, and not actually be struck at all, right up until the 'one shot to the head' that drops him.

Battlemaster Fighter 3. GWM.

Ogres turn, he swings, misses and the Fighter spams a sup dice on Riposte, hitting for 2D6+1D8+13 damage (23 damage). Narrated as: the Fighter knocks the Ogres clumsy attack to one side, leaving the Ogre vulnerable for a counter attack.

Fighters first turn, he swings again hitting, spamming a sup dice on Menacing attack dealing 23 more. Narrated as: the Fighter snarls at the Ogre, his sword spearing towards the creatures heart, as the Ogres resolve waivers.

He then action surges, spams a Sup dice on Precise strike to hit, dealing 20 more damage, killing the Ogre. Narrated as: The Fighters sword thrusts upwards through the creatures heart, skewering it and killing it dead in a single blow.