D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Flamestrike]

1. There is little space for fighters to grow. They can only take features that are either:
   1. Outdated by the time the fighter gets it COUGH 3rd Casters COUGH Psi Knight flies for 1 turn at level 7 COUGH
   2. Hard to fully utilize because of how fighters work. High Intelligence on a Fighter?
   3. Are not easy to leverage in the Game. Artisan's tools aren't easy to bring up in a campaign.
2. This narrowness means casters much be held back in an aspect of combat to make the extremely focused Fighter relevant.

Are you not kind of ignoring Feats there? They're a core class feature of Fighters, and they get more of them.

Even just assuming the 2 bonus feats they get over everyone else barring Rogues, and blow them on Skilled and Skill Expert, you wind up with a Human Fighter with 11 skills (1 with expertise).

 

[Shadowedeyes]

It wasn't reprinted. Banneret was the name a sidebar gave it for use outside of Forgotten Realms. And again, it's not disliked because it doesn't do MOAR DPS but because it is bad at adding support elements to the fighter, which is it's goal. The only ability worth it is the granting of reaction attacks when you action surge.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes because it is not "more damage" and "more hp".

This is what you are implying is needed, options less focused on these two things. Well the Purple Dragon is that.

And the PDK is again the least like fighter class because it combat buff is weak and its out of combat buff comes in late in most campaigns and is usually hard to use unless you had no Charisma based diplomats in your party for the whole beginning of the campaign.

That's the point. Because Fighters are 95% Combat, theroom and power for out of combat is low.

And since that are 95% Combat, no other class is supposed to be able to touch them because they kinda stink at out of combat actions.

Also if you find it limiting it is because of how you are building your character. I have a Arcane Archer in a game right now with a 15 intelligence and a 10 constitution. When I make 4th level I am taking a half-feat and bumping intelligence to 16.

Is that character optimized for combat? Absolutely not, there are many builds even using the "weak" Arcane Archer subclass that would be more powerful in combat.

You sacrificing your CON to make your magic work is what I'm taking about. Luckily for Arcane Archers the sacrifice isn't major.

Some artisans tools can be limited, others like alchemists tools or jewelers tools are easy to make relevant.

If you are limited by the fighter options presented it is because your thinking is narrow.

They are as relevant as the DM allows. And they are the hardest to force into use.

RAW Battlemasters get 4 SP dice per short rest, that is on average 2 per battle if you are using the D&D guidlines. The average fight lasts 3-4 rounds meaning a battlemaster on average should use a superiority dice on over half his turns. Further they can get more dice through a feat or fighting style if they want

The number of Rounds is determined on how hard the DM makes encounters and have powergamed the players are.

Battlemasters litterally have fewer dice than Monks have Ki. And Monks can blow thru their ki fast.

There are also ton of different actions you can take in combat and even more than one type of attack action.

Most of them are not great options for fighters. That's a whole can of worms.

You could try to get your enemy to realize the futility of fighting and lay down their arms after a couple were knocked off. That is a combat action that is not swinging your sword and if you took Purple Dragon Knight you could try it with expertise on the persuasion check. You could try this in every battle on one turn instead of swinging your sword. Not saying you should do that, and it too could get old but it is completely viable in a straight fighter build and is an action which costs nothing in addition to having a ton of out of combat uses.

At level 7.
when 75-90% of most campaigns are over.

Provided your party has no Charisma characters in it.

While I am at it you can get commanding presence superiority dice through battlemaster which has out of combat uses, multiple times per day.

Yeah but the effect isn't that strong unless you are built specifically to use it that way. Commanding Pressence and Tactical Assessment use tertiary Fighter ability scores.

Now if you could expend multiple dice into a single roll.

 

[Minigiant]

Are you not kind of ignoring Feats there? They're a core class feature of Fighters, and they get more of them.

Even just assuming the 2 bonus feats they get over everyone else barring Rogues, and blow them on Skilled and Skill Expert, you wind up with a Human Fighter with 11 skills (1 with expertise).

Feats are optional.
Feats are often obviously suboptimal until level 6 or 8.

 

[Minigiant]

It wasn't reprinted. Banneret was the name a sidebar gave it for use outside of Forgotten Realms. And again, it's not disliked because it doesn't do MOAR DPS but because it is bad at adding support elements to the fighter, which is it's goal. The only ability worth it is the granting of reaction attacks when you action surge.

My point is the the Fighter is heavily focused on damage dealing and mitigation. So much so that it has the be the best at them. So few classes can apporach them at it. Especially true spellcasters. If they did, we'd be back in 3e.

Because of this, there is like design space and design power too do much else. So a support based subclass for the fighter like the PDK is going to suck.Because fighters can't be good at support or out of combat because it's the best at damage dealing and mitigation.

And since all subclasses has to match up with the Champion, there's even less design space to work with.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I agree with you, at least to some degree. It does seem like WotC is hesitant about the subclasses for fighters(and barbarians) and their abilities for some reason.

 

[ECMO3]

Feats are often obviously suboptimal until level 6 or 8.

Well this is wrong for numerous reasons:

1. You need a feat to have an 18 in anything at level 1 using point buy or standard array. No other way to do it.

2. If you are rolling abilities a half feat will almost always be better than an ASI at level 4 if the ability you are going to raise is odd, unless you have two odd abilities in which case an ASI may be better.

3. For a fighter, feats are almost always better than ASIs in terms of out of combat use. For social and exploration they are strictly superior to ASIs for fighters in general and a fighter who takes an ASI instead will be "suboptimal" in these situations. The exception would be a high dex fighter built around stealth, acrobatics and SOH. In that case an ASI might be betterl. This is not true for all classes. Rogues, Paladins, Sorcerers often are better off with an ASI for out of combat but fighters almost never are.

And this goes back to my original theme. You build a stereotypical trope fighter and then wonder why he is so narrow or simple. It is because you are CHOOSING to build him that way.

 

[ECMO3]

My point is the the Fighter is heavily focused on damage dealing and mitigation. So much so that it has the be the best at them. So few classes can apporach them at it. Especially true spellcasters. If they did, we'd be back in 3e.

Because of this, there is like design space and design power too do much else. So a support based subclass for the fighter like the PDK is going to suck.Because fighters can't be good at support or out of combat because it's the best at damage dealing and mitigation.

And since all subclasses has to match up with the Champion, there's even less design space to work with.

A Rogue and a bladesinger are both better at damage mitigation. If optimized, I would argue these classes are in general better than any fighter at damage mitigation, even a heavily armored one with a high constitution. However, they can not deal the damage of a fighter or match the combination of both these things.

A dexterity-based fighter is typically not that great at damage mitigation and I think this is as common as the GWM or sword and board fighter.

You are right that properly built they can deal more damage, but there are numerous other options to build to and the PDK with a 14 charisma could be great fun in a party with no other face. If you are putting numbers on a white board though you might not like it.

The way I look at it is the fighter is great at damage dealing and because of that I don't need an ASI in strength or dex to keep up in combat. I can take skilled or prodigy or a half feat like skill expert and boost intelligence and be the guy with the best inviestigation in the party and still be good enough in combat.

 

[Minigiant]

Well this is wrong for numerous reasons:

1. You need a feat to have an 18 in anything at level 1 using point buy or standard array. No other way to do it.

2. If you are rolling abilities a half feat will almost always be better than an ASI at level 4 if the ability you are going to raise is odd, unless you have two odd abilities in which case an ASI may be better.

3. For a fighter, feats are almost always better than ASIs in terms of out of combat. For social and exploration they are strictly superior to ASIs for fighters in general and a fighter who takes an ASI instead will be "suboptimal" in these situations. The exception would be a high dex fighter built around stealth, acrobatics and SOH. In that case an ASI might be betterl. This is not true for all classes. Rogues, Paladins, Sorcerers often are better off with an ASI for out of combat but fighters almost never are.


And this goes back to my original theme. You build a stereotyical trope fighter and then wonder why he is so narrow or simple. It is because you are CHOOSING to build him that way.

You don't get feats at level 1 unless you are a variant human or custom lineage.
Getting your class's primary abilty score to 18-20 is often better than an feat. And you must wait until level 4 to take one.
For out of combatchecks, the ability score is often a teritary ability score for the fighter. Since most DMs do not use complex ability checks nor skill challenges, it is unlikely that the fighter has the highest value in a check or contest in a moderate to large sized party.

 

[ECMO3]

You don't get feats at level 1 unless you are a variant human or custom lineage.
Getting your class's primary abilty score to 18-20 is often better than an feat. And you must wait until level 4 to take one.
For out of combatchecks, the ability score is often a teritary ability score for the fighter. Since most DMs do not use complex ability checks nor skill challenges, it is unlikely that the fighter has the highest value in a check or contest in a moderate to large sized party.

Custom lineage with a half feat is the only way to get an 18 at level 1.

If getting an 18 is of upmost importance as you imply then you should never play a race other than custom lineage. If you can't take a feat at level 4 then you certainly should not settle for a 16 at level 1. So by this logic you should always take custom lineage as your race right?

The only skill that uses strength is athletics and it is not used that much out of combat. That is why for out of combat use it is generally better to take a feat or to be honest even an ASI in another stat. You can boost charisma, intelligence or wisdom and get bonuses to a bunch of skills or take a feat that gives you skills or out of combat spells.

A fighter who takes skill expert in a skill he has a decent score in will likely have the highest skill in that party and some skills like stealth, perception and to a lessor extent investigation are used by all party members, so having the highest score is not as important as having a good score.

Finally the premise is simply not true, most parties in 5E do not have the 4E balanced design because classes are much more flexible and every character has to pull their weight. In a party for example with a bladesinger, hexblade and paladin, all combat optimized, the party as a whole will probably be better served if the fighter takes things not related to martial prowess. The party is plenty good in melee combat already and if he takes prodigy, skilled and skill expert at 4/6/8 that will give him thieves tools, 5 skills including 2 with expertise, a language and a +1 ability. At that point he has 3 more proficiencies than an equivalent level Rogue and expertise in two of them.

Let's talk about spells - a full caster gets 12 spells per day at 8th level. If you play a human or custom lineage eldritch knight and pick the right feats, at 8th level you can have a build that is a single class fighter, can cast 12 spells a day and has MORE cantrips than a full caster. At higher levels you are going to fall behind and all yours at 8th level are 1st and 2nd level, but you can cast just as many times in a day.