D&D 5E (2014) Spellprepared/known for multiclassed spellcaster

[Mistwell]

This is an interesting debate. Good points on both sides. I know how I'd rule for balance reasons, but I don't know which is correct from a RAW or even a RAI basis.

 

[steeldragons]

Keep in mind that multiclassing is an optional rule, and the rules for each class are not written with multiclassing in mind.

While the rules for multiclass spells known/prepared could be clearer, the example given makes it obvious what is the correct interpretation: a Ranger 4/Wizard 3 has 2nd and 3rd level slots, but the example explicitly states that the character only knows 1st level ranger spells. Any reading of the rules that would let the ranger know higher level ranger spells must be wrong.

So by the rules a cleric 1/wizard 19 can only prepare 1st level cleric spells.

THANK YOU! Finally!

Beginning of the book, the Specific trumps the General. The "general" rule of how clerics prepare spells and gain slots is overwritten by the "specific" [again, OPTIONAL] added-on rule for how multiclassing works.

IOW, what the cleric entry says matters not at all.

 

[steeldragons]

You are correct. What you are missing is that the rules for preparing spells as a cleric (as quoted above) specifically tell you that you can prepare any spell for which you have spell slots, and the rules for multiclassing do not distinguish between classes for the purpose of determining your spell slots -- you don't have 'wizard spell slots' and 'cleric spell slots', you have spell slots.

So as a Wizard19/Cleric1, you prepare spells as a 1st level cleric who also happens to have 9th level spell slots. You are limited in the number of spells you can prepare (since that's based on your cleric level, as noted in the multiclassing rules), but not in the level of spell you can prepare (because you have the spell slots of a 20th level caster, not those of a 1st level cleric).

--
Pauper

This is a classic "rules lawyering/powergaming" tactic I like to call "intentional ignorance." The rules are quite clear, yet you reach for the clearly unintended AND unwritten interpretation that grants outrageously overpowered options by ignoring a) the specific v. general guideline, and b) the EXPLICIT multiclassing rules.

Obviously, no one can tell you ["you" = anyone suggesting the 9th level cleric spells are ok] how to play, and it's no skin off my back that you do what you like in your game, but anyone trying to act like they can have a wizard 19/cleirc 1 and cast 9th level cleric spells because they're just innocently following what the book says has no damned leg to stand on.

There is no conflict here [in the book] except the one being created, specifically, by those who want to get outrageously broken power.

 

[Pauper]

This is a classic "rules lawyering/powergaming" tactic I like to call "intentional ignorance." The rules are quite clear, yet you reach for the clearly unintended AND unwritten interpretation that grants outrageously overpowered options by ignoring a) the specific v. general guideline, and b) the EXPLICIT multiclassing rules.

The rules are pretty clear, I agree, but you're the one who seems to be ignoring them. In order to support the argument that a Wizard19/Cleric1 can only prepare 1st level cleric spells, you need to argue that the phrase in the multiclassing rules that says that you prepare spells as a single-classed spellcaster also says you determine what spell slots you possess as a single-classed spellcaster. The problem is that the multiclassing rules don't say that -- there's an entire paragraph on how you determine what caster level you are for determining your character's spell slots, and it makes no distinction between your classes -- the rules even explicitly state that you can cast spells from any of your Spellcasting classes with the slots you gain from the Multiclassing Spell Slot chart.

In other words, if you are a multiclass caster, you determine your character's spell slots from the Multiclass Spell Slot chart; those are the spell slots your character has. You don't have a subset or different number of those slots only to determine what spells you can prepare -- those are your spell slots.

Obviously, no one can tell you ["you" = anyone suggesting the 9th level cleric spells are ok] how to play

Actually, someone can, since I play a cleric/wizard in Adventurer's League, and to this point, that's how the interaction has been ruled in Organized Play.

There is no conflict here [in the book] except the one being created, specifically, by those who want to get outrageously broken power.

I'd suggest you try a Wizard19/Cleric1 compared with other multiclasses to see how 'broken' it is before just spouting off:

- Compared to a Cleric20, a Wizard19/Cleric 1 has no domains or domain abilities, which also means no free prepared spells from those domains. A mass heal from a Life Domain cleric will be far more effective than one from a Wizard/Cleric; similarly other cleric-specific spells will be more effective coming from an actual cleric.

- A Cleric19/Wizard1 can prepare 9th level wizard spells, but has the in-game requirement of actually finding 9th level spells on scrolls or in other spellbooks to copy into his own. (The wizard can copy any spell he can prepare, and he can prepare any spell for which he has spell slots -- so if the cleric can do it, so can the wizard.) This makes the Wizard19/Cleric1 nearly identical to the Cleric19/Wizard1, instead of making one vastly more powerful than the other.

- If your interpretation of the rule is correct, then a Wizard10/Cleric10 is one of the worst multi-class options you can take, since a Wizard is already restricted based on what spells he gets for free in his spellbook. (Unlike the rule on preparing spells, the rule for gaining free spells specifically lists the Wizard chart for determining what spell level of spell can be gained for free.) Under my interpretation, Wizard10/Cleric10 is of basically equivalent spellcasting ability to any other cleric/wizard multiclass, and the differences lie in which class abilities the character has access to.

An interpretation where one multi-class combo is vastly more powerful than the others is more 'broken', to my mind, than one where all multi-class combos are largely equivalent.

--
Pauper

 

[Mistwell]

The rules are quite clear, yet you reach for the clearly unintended AND unwritten interpretation that grants outrageously overpowered options by ignoring a) the specific v. general guideline, and b) the EXPLICIT multiclassing rules.

I think that's a conclusion leap there. The rules are clear in the specific that you prepare as a single-class caster, but the single class caster has...what spell slots available? Not clear, since the specific multiclass rules also give combined slot rules. You do need to add "and your spell slots are also those of a single-class caster, for purposes of preparation only but not for slots". Which seems easy for the example we're talking about of Cleric 1, but it's not so easy when you get to Cleric 11/Wizard 9 for example. So now do you need to juggle slots for each in judging preparation for each, while also having combined slots as the multiclass rule? Not so clear to me that's what was intended instead of the much more simple combined slots in the multiclass rules section. This issue is actually up for interpretation I think and no side has the rules "clearly" in their favor.

 

[steeldragons]

The rules are pretty clear, I agree, but you're the one who seems to be ignoring them. In order to support the argument that a Wizard19/Cleric1 can only prepare 1st level cleric spells, you need to argue that the phrase in the multiclassing rules that says that you prepare spells as a single-classed spellcaster also says you determine what spell slots you possess as a single-classed spellcaster.

(emphasis mine)

Precisely. It doesn't HAVE to say that. What you are saying is obvious, unless you are willfully looking for a way to break it. Which, I submit, those gunning for 9th level cleric spells with 1 level of cleric obviously are.

A single classed Cleric that is 1st level gets how many slots? What level are those slots...as a single-classed 1st level cleric?

I am ignoring nothing. I also need not support anything other than basic reading comprehension.

Enjoy your game.

 

[Mallus]

Maybe my comprehension skills are dulling as middle age creeps on, but the 'natural reading' of the rules *isn't* "a 1st level cleric knows every clerical spell regardless of level, but can't cast them for want of a slot".

A cleric 1/wizard 19 knows all the 1st-level clerical spells and they can cast them in up to 9th level slots because of multiclassing.

The road to Pun Pun is paved with any other readings.

 

[thalmin]

I think what the multiclassing rules would allow is for the Wizard/Cleric to cast his prepared first-level cleric spells in a higher slot.

edit: Ninja'd

 

[MG.0]

A 20th level wizard / 1st level cleric gets only 1st level cleric spells.
A 20th level cleric / 1st level wizard gets only 1st level wizard spells.

Because I say so.

 

[Prism]

The rules are pretty clear, I agree, but you're the one who seems to be ignoring them. In order to support the argument that a Wizard19/Cleric1 can only prepare 1st level cleric spells, you need to argue that the phrase in the multiclassing rules that says that you prepare spells as a single-classed spellcaster also says you determine what spell slots you possess as a single-classed spellcaster. The problem is that the multiclassing rules don't say that -- there's an entire paragraph on how you determine what caster level you are for determining your character's spell slots, and it makes no distinction between your classes -- the rules even explicitly state that you can cast spells from any of your Spellcasting classes with the slots you gain from the Multiclassing Spell Slot chart.

In other words, if you are a multiclass caster, you determine your character's spell slots from the Multiclass Spell Slot chart; those are the spell slots your character has. You don't have a subset or different number of those slots only to determine what spells you can prepare -- those are your spell slots.

Ok using your logic a 17th level wizard / 3rd level ranger can cast up to 9th level wizard spells and up to 5th level ranger spells since they have the slots and can learn any ranger spell they have slots for when they level up?

Except the book specifically says the ranger can't do that with an example. Are you purposely ignoring the example given? Bards and Sorcerers use the same mechanic as the ranger. Does this mean that a cleric/wizard is a much better option than a cleric/bard?