D&D 5E Spells cast at higher level spell slots. Worth it?

[TwoSix]

With the way D&D spells scale, should a 3rd level Burning Hands be equivalent to 3rd level Fireball, or is the system made to give an edge to spells that are inherently a higher tier?

The system is designed to give an edge to spells of a higher tier. Combined with the limited high level spell slots and limited spell preparation, this is definitely one of my favorite parts of the system. Prepping a low level scaling spell has an inherent advantage in that you have a lot more slots to cast it with. (Doesn't apply to warlocks, of course.) If you want to have multiple spells capable of doing the best damage possible for the spell slot (fireball for 3rd), you have to make the trade off of prepping a spell that can only be cast in that highest level slot.

Having damage scale purely with spell slot (by having burning hands do 8d6 at 3rd, for example), would incentivize spellcasters to prep predominantly low level spells for blasting, and use high level slots for functions that can't be duplicated by lower level spells. I'm not saying that's bad, of course, but it's much closer to the 3.5/PF paradigm of "blasting is suboptimal", and 5e made a deliberate course correction away from that.

(Side note: don't use fireball in any comparison of spell scaling damage, as it's intentionally stronger for its level to encourage fireball using wizards because it's a classic D&D trope.)

 

[Croesus]

Does anyone else think it would be more interesting to have variable bonuses on level up? For instance, casting a fireball might have these options:

For each spell slot level higher than 3rd you can choose one of the following: increase damage by +1d6, increase the radius by 5 feet, or increase the range by 30 feet.

I'd love to see this as a fully fleshed-out alternate system, but I would not want it in the core system. My reasoning? Analysis paralysis. I already have players who take forever to decide which spell to cast on their turn. Having them also decide on which options to add to a spell would just make this worse.

Reminds me of Champions' power pools. The "cosmic" power pool, where a player could do pretty much anything, was very flexible, but only if the player could do all the calculations very quickly. Most players could not play such a character well.

 

[phantomK9]

Does anyone else think it would be more interesting to have variable bonuses on level up? For instance, casting a fireball might have these options:

For each spell slot level higher than 3rd you can choose one of the following: increase damage by +1d6, increase the radius by 5 feet, or increase the range by 30 feet.

Yes, I have said that since I first got the PHB.
All spells should have at least a couple of options like this when you cast them at a higher level

Options could be....
- Increase damage dice
- Increase die type
- Increase range
- Increase area of effect
- Increase duration
- Increase number of targets
- Increase numerical bonus (in the case of spells that just give + to a number)

I'm sure there are more out there. Basically any stat/variable of a spell should be eligible for increasing when spending a higher level spell slot, you just need to choose which one.

 

[Croesus]

Yes, I have said that since I first got the PHB.
All spells should have at least a couple of options like this when you cast them at a higher level

Options could be....
- Increase damage dice
- Increase die type
- Increase range
- Increase area of effect
- Increase duration
- Increase number of targets
- Increase numerical bonus (in the case of spells that just give + to a number)

I'm sure there are more out there. Basically any stat/variable of a spell should be eligible for increasing when spending a higher level spell slot, you just need to choose which one.

Another option to add to your list: lower the casting time

BTW, one possibility with such a system is that every spell could begin as a 1st level spell. Example: teleport. 1st level allows caster to teleport a certain distance, say 30'. Cast at 2nd level and the distance changes, or he can bring along a willing creature. By the time it's at 6th level or higher, we get close to what the current teleport spell can do.

The spells wouldn't be exactly the same, e.g., fireball at 3rd level might do a bit more or less than 8d6, but they could be close. The main problem is what I mentioned above - analysis paralysis. Too many options, available on the fly, could really bog down play.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Bear in mind that comparing the damage of an up-cast burning hands spell against a fireball when discussing up-casting in general is a rather skewed comparison. "Iconic" spells like Fireball and Lightning bolt were specifically given higher damage than a normal spell of that level would have.

I've used upcasting a fair amount, generally because I didn't always have the exact right ideal spell, but had a pretty good lower-level spell, and a higher-level slot available.

Personally I don't think something being iconic is sufficient reason to justify a spike in power level. That's like saying Fighters are more iconic than Barbarians, so let's make the fighter an objectively better option.

 

[cmad1977]

The sorcerer at my table does it some. Seems effrctivw


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[Samir]

I hadn't thought about crits, however, I think I'm actually fine with that.

Also consider that making it an attack roll ignores Magic Resistance, and allows you to get advantage on the roll. (Garnering advantage on attack rolls is much easier to get than imposing disadvantage on saving throws.)

Basically, it's going to make it much more powerful.

 

[Prism]

We tend to prep higher level spells as utility spells and use lower level spells for damage and combat effect, which we scale up as needed. So I guess you can say we do it quite a lot. For example a 5th level wizard might learn and prepare fly rather than fireball, and use shatter as their damaging spell. We do a lot of out of combat stuff so spells prepared is quite a limiting factor and there is only enough room for a few combat spells.

For example our high level wizard might prepare gate, feeblemind and forcecage as their high level spells, and scale up cone of cold if they need to do some damage instead

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It seems like casting most single monster conjure X spells seem particularly useful at the 7th level (korred and the myrimadons). Sadly, there isn't much benefit in upcasting conjure celestial.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Personally I don't think something being iconic is sufficient reason to justify a spike in power level. That's like saying Fighters are more iconic than Barbarians, so let's make the fighter an objectively better option.

IMC, the justification is "someone at some point in the past heavily optimized the Fireball spell to get the power of an almost-5th-level spell out of a 3rd level slot, and that's why it became iconic/popular, because it was so well-made." My spell research rules similarly allow you to optimize spells, or do the opposite and research a quick-and-dirty version if you don't care about the slot cost and just want to research the spell quickly--which is where Drawmij's Instant Summons came from, from someone who wanted a 3rd level effect and didn't care if he had to spend a 6th level slot on it.