D&D 5E Spells cast at higher level spell slots. Worth it?

[FormerlyHemlock]

Also consider that making it an attack roll ignores Magic Resistance

That's mostly just a flaw in the vanilla 5E magic resistance rules. They're too save-oriented.

 

[TwoSix]

IMC, the justification is "someone at some point in the past heavily-optimized the Fireball spell to get the power of an almost-5th-level spell out of a 3rd level slot, and that's why it became iconic/popular, because it was so well-made." My spell research rules similarly allow you to optimize spells, or do the opposite and research a quick-and-dirty version if you don't care about the slot cost and just want to research the spell quickly--which is where Drawmij's Instant Summons came from, from someone who wanted a 3rd level effect and didn't care if he had to spend a 6th level slot on it.

Sounds very similar to the spell research rules in ACKS.

 

[cbwjm]

IMC, the justification is "someone at some point in the past heavily-optimized the Fireball spell to get the power of an almost-5th-level spell out of a 3rd level slot, and that's why it became iconic/popular, because it was so well-made." My spell research rules similarly allow you to optimize spells, or do the opposite and research a quick-and-dirty version if you don't care about the slot cost and just want to research the spell quickly--which is where Drawmij's Instant Summons came from, from someone who wanted a 3rd level effect and didn't care if he had to spend a 6th level slot on it.

This is something like the rules in adventurer, conqueror, king. Fireball would have been a 5th level spell but some wizard in the past had a major breakthrough and optimised it. The optimised version became the common version of the spell.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Another option to add to your list: lower the casting time

BTW, one possibility with such a system is that every spell could begin as a 1st level spell. Example: teleport. 1st level allows caster to teleport a certain distance, say 30'. Cast at 2nd level and the distance changes, or he can bring along a willing creature. By the time it's at 6th level or higher, we get close to what the current teleport spell can do.

The spells wouldn't be exactly the same, e.g., fireball at 3rd level might do a bit more or less than 8d6, but they could be close. The main problem is what I mentioned above - analysis paralysis. Too many options, available on the fly, could really bog down play.

Yeah, I can see myself really digging into this as an "advanced" option (hell, given what you're proposing it'd probably need a whole book to itself). But it would not be a great idea for the core game.

Incarnum magic worked on roughly the same "everything starts at 1st level" principle, incidentally. So it has been done.

 

[devincutler]

When an encounter is going wrong and you need to shut it down now, upcasting damage spells is useful. But usually, you are better off not upcasting damage spells.

 

[gyor]

Upranking is more useful to classes that have limited spells known, like the Sorcerer.

The decision for Burning Hands and Fireball to deal the same damage in any given spell slot is, in my opinion, one of the smartest things in this game. Fireball is still better than Burning Hands, because the area of effect is larger and usually more convenient, but it isn't stronger in every situation. It's great for multiclass wizard/clerics, who get to maintain their expected efficacy even if they only have access to low-level spells.

I think the slot scaling system is hurt by the existence of high-level spells which break the formula. The fact that Meteor Swarm hits so much harder than Fireball IX is unfortunate, but given that it's only going to show up in very high-level games anyway, the impact isn't that significant. The fact that Heal is so much better than Cure Wounds is much more disruptive.

This, it's useful to all casting classes, but far more useful for the Sorceror as it allows the Sorceror to do more with less spells know.

Example Chromatic Orb, which I personally think is the most practical damage spell for sorcerors because you get it at first level, you can choose from a variety of energy types, and it scales pretty well for a damage spell, works well with metamagic of a variety of types, its like a variety of damage spells combined into one making it very effient for the sorceror.

6 possible damage types x 9 spell slots x 4 metamagics is like 216 closely related spells combined into one.

Example casting a Twinned Thunder Chromatic Orb using a 9th level slot is 11D8 thunder damage per target against 2 targets. 22D8 potential damage is nothing to sneeze at, with can be cold/fire/lightening/acid/poison instead, yes there are more damaging spells, but taking a lot of them will take alot of spells known, and some of them maybe higher risk to your own side.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

in my opinion upcasting is a mecanic that is under utilised.
When the UA articles started to do their subclass series I expected that a few would have abilities that would let you cast spells as if they where cast with a higer level slot.
But non of them did, I think sublcass abilties might have been a ncie way to see more use f the upcasting system

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So I've been really trying to examine the mechanics behind these spells and standardize them by level (and to an extent upscaling). I started with 1st level spells to begin thinking about internal consistency between spells in terms of damage, as well as thinking about making spells that seem very seldom used or chosen more attractive and strategic options. I then looked at 2nd level spells to find internal consistency and consistency between 2nd level spells and 1st level spells using a second level spell slot. Here are some of the changes that seem to make sense to me. Please provide your own feedback and analysis, as admittedly I'm not really all that great with numbers. Btw, I've included the Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells in with my attempt to rebalance spells.

Arms of Hadar: Increased damage to use 2d8 rather than 2d6.

Armor of Agathys: Increased temp hit points from 5 to 10. Unsure of whether adding 5 or 10 per additional spell level used makes most sense.

Create or Destroy Water: Yes, in theory I know this spell is one that can make or break character survival. However, I have never seen it used. So I thought how I can make it more appealing and added the following option to the spell:

Desiccate. You can target a creature within range, destroying the water in their body and causing them great pain. The target must make a Constitution saving throw or take 2d10 necrotic damage. If they succeed they take only half damage. This has no effect on creatures that do not have water in their bodies such as constructs and most undead. Creatures with significant water in their bodies, such as plants, aquatic creatures, and water elementals have disadvantage on their saving throw.

Additionally, for each spell level used above first adds 1d10 damage to the desiccate option.

Dissonant Whispers: Changed the damage to 3d6+3, and each additional spell level above 1st adds 1d6+1 damage. Personally, I don't see energy types as being less commonly resisted as reasons to lower damage, especially when spells like Magic Missile exist at the same level.

Earth Tremor: Updated damage to 2d8, increasing +1d8 per spell level above 1st.

Grease: Each additional spell level used above 1st increases area of effect dimensions by 5'.

Ray of Sickness: Increased damage to 3d8 poison.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter: Added that when you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can affect one additional creature within range for each slot level above 1st.

Cloud of Daggers: Increase base damage to 6d4. Alter the spell so that increasing the spell slot used adds another 5' cube to the area of effect, with each cube connected by at least one of their faces (I'm tired and don't know how to word that to make sense, but basically each cube needs to touch like a contiguous wall or column).

Flame Blade: Remove the concentration component. I don't understand why this spell requires concentration but Spiritual Weapon does not.

Dust Devil: Increase damage to 2d8.

Melf's Acid Arrow: Increase damage to 4d6 and 2d6 (seems to compare better to other 2nd level spells damage wise, and it certainly helps that I despise the d4).

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm: Increase damage to 4d6.

Witch Bolt: Move this to a 2nd level spell slot. Still requires an action to cast and an attack roll. But afterwards only requires a bonus action to maintain each round and automatically deals damage (I see this spell as comparable to Heat Metal or Flaming Sphere).

Gust of Wind: Casting it at higher levels increases range by 10' and increase push amount by 5' per spell level above 2nd.

Lesser Restoration, Levitate, Spider Climb, Suggestion, and Darkvision: Each additional spell level used allows you target one additional person.

Ray of Enfeeblement: I thought it might make sense that the Constitution saving throw is always made at disadvantage (since you're supposedly enfeebled). Also, for each spell slot used above 2nd, you gain one additional ray.

Now like I said, I haven't done a hard look at the numbers. Just general figures and averages. If someone better equipped to examine the numbers would like to do so and let me know if I'm on to something or if this is complete garbage, let me know.

 

[schnee]

When an encounter is going wrong and you need to shut it down now, upcasting damage spells is useful. But usually, you are better off not upcasting damage spells.

Yeah, everything doesn't have to be balanced, but it's nice to have more options rather than being just SOL. It's like 'I'm out of arrows, but I still have a sling' for my elven Druid.

IMO having every single low-level spell optimize upwards to be just as good as every named high level spell risks adding a bit too much power to the caster classes, and is a possible step towards the 3.x 'linear martial quadratic wizard' problem.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Yeah, everything doesn't have to be balanced, but it's nice to have more options rather than being just SOL. It's like 'I'm out of arrows, but I still have a sling' for my elven Druid.

I see where you're going with that, but I don't see a sling and bullets as equivalent to a bow and arrow. One is a much simpler weapon that (at least based on my imagination and in no way my nonexistent expertise with weapons) is easier to improvise from materials you have, requires less upkeep, and is easier to hide from handsy guardsmen than a bow and arrow. As such, that versatility plus that fact that it's a simple weapon makes it a good back up (as you said) but not a main weapon. But also either way it's reasonable choice. The difference in damage between a short bow and sling is not that significant.

And I'm not claiming that spells should be equivalent. The common example being used is burning hands versus fireball. Burning Hands cast as a 3rd level spell should be on par with Fireball. The choice whether or not to use fireball shouldn't be the damage that fireball does, but rather question if your enemies are right in your face, or 150 feet away and grouped close enough to be caught in a 20 foot radius. That is a strategic choice and to me is representative of how Fireball, in my mind, differs from Burning Hands.

Let's use another example in Thunderwave vs Shatter. Thunderwave cast at 2nd level should do similar damage (and I believe in this instance actually does). The difference is Thunderwave is centered on you, while Shatter gives you the freedom and flexibility to cast it anywhere within 60 feet. Each of these have a similar area of effect (15' cube vs 10' radius) so the choice is not what does more damage (since in that department they are equivalent) but in how you can use the spell on the battlefield.

Otherwise, my experience is that my spell is wasted if I do not use that 3rd level slot to cast Fireball, even if Fireball is not the most strategic or useful option in situations that require things to get hurt/killed/damaged.