D&D (2024) spells going forward

[Horwath]

I also do not like this 3 source spell system.
But it is better than 10 different class spell lists.

IMHO, best solution would be only 1 spell list.
and any spellcaster can cast any spell.
Just have classes/sub-classes give 2 extra cantrips and 2 extra spells known/prepared for spell levels 1-5 that is in the role of that class/sub-class.

Drop all fullcasters to d6 HD and starting no armor proficiencies. Then depending on sub-class they can get light or medium armors.

 

[Dausuul]

Two of the power sources contain one full caster, plus a half caster with a strong thematic tie to the full caster. "Divine" might as well be "cleric" and "primal" might as well be "druid."

The third power source has four full casters crammed into it*. Bard, sorcerer, warlock, and wizard all share a spell list. It's an especially bad fit for the bard, which had to have a bunch of spells hacked out by school and then several other spells added by class feature; but the other three also suffer from the loss of distinctiveness.

*Well, three full casters plus a sorta-three-quarters caster that used to be a full caster before it got shanked. And a half caster if the artificer winds up in the arcane camp, which I expect it will.

 

[HammerMan]

Two of the power sources contain one full caster, plus a half caster with a strong thematic tie to the full caster. "Divine" might as well be "cleric" and "primal" might as well be "druid."

The third power source has four full casters crammed into it*. Bard, sorcerer, warlock, and wizard all share a spell list. It's an especially bad fit for the bard, which had to have a bunch of spells hacked out by school and then several other spells added by class feature; but the other three also suffer from the loss of distinctiveness.

*Well, three full casters plus a sorta-three-quarters caster that used to be a full caster before it got shanked. And a half caster if the artificer winds up in the arcane camp, which I expect it will.

Divine doesn’t feel too off but the smite spells are weird. The ranger getting more druid spells is fine but giving Druid ranger ones feels iky. Arcane just is TOO all over the place

 

[DEFCON 1]

So going forward with 'arcane' and 'divine' and 'primal' spell lists how are the 2014 classes getting spells?

so in the warlock cantrip thread I have been beat over the head by "it's not on the 2014 spell list"
however I also keep being told that nothing will stop the support of the 2014 warlock.

so come 2024 lets say we get the new classes more or less as they are in the playtest. then the first splat book adds 15 new spells, 10 to the arcane list, 9 to the divine list and 6 to the primal list.

now we have a player that is playing a 2014 warlock and another playing the 2024 cleric... the 2024 cleric just got 9 new spells, but the warlock list for 2014 isn't every new arcane spell, so how will you know what ones to add to the warlock list? Do you think a sidebar?

it gets worse with the 2014 bard that has multi spells from divine lists... now I don't have to just look at those 10 arcane spells but the 9 divine (yes that means some overlaped).

so going forward will the 2014 classes not be supported?

The 2014E Warlock player and the DM spend 10 minutes deciding together which of the new 2024E spells the Warlock will get for the campaign.

There you go. The problem is solved.

(General) You don't need WotC to solve it for you. (General) You can just do it yourself. Take the 10 minutes to decide together what the answer will be for this campaign. Now might (general) you have to do it again for you next campaign? Spend another 10 minutes talking with the DM about whether your 2014E Warlock gets any of the new spells from the 2024E book? Yep. That is true. You might have to spend 10 whole minutes at the beginning of a months or years-long campaign having a convo with your DM. I know it'll be tough for some of (general) you... talking with your DM like that... but if that's really such an issue (general) you can just do the easy alternative and just not use and of the new dozen spells with your 2014E Warlock. That is an entirely reasonable alternative solution.

I know people out there just wish the D&D game could work exactly the way they want it to with no thought or preparation or talking or effort needed... but that's just not how any of this works.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Divine doesn’t feel too off but the smite spells are weird. The ranger getting more druid spells is fine but giving Druid ranger ones feels iky. Arcane just is TOO all over the place

They’ve made it pretty clear that the next time we see classes that have already been tested we will see the stuff they’ve come up with in those classes.

Which means, the Paladin and Ranger will have spells that only they get.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As for the thread topic, there will be a general rule in the 2024 PHB that answers the question, but I suspect that it will be that the classes that have access to the spell in the 2024 phb also can take the spell in the 2014 phb.

 

[Gorck]

IMHO, best solution would be only 1 spell list.
and any spellcaster can cast any spell.
Just have classes/sub-classes give 2 extra cantrips and 2 extra spells known/prepared for spell levels 1-5 that is in the role of that class/sub-class.

Ah yes, nothing says "Wizard" more than tossing around Cure Wounds and summoning Spiritual Guardians /s

 

[Horwath]

Ah yes, nothing says "Wizard" more than tossing around Cure Wounds and summoning Spiritual Guardians /s

spiritual guardians, aberrations, demons, just summons by another skin. Mostly flavor.
Also, now 1 level of Life cleric gives wizard heavy armor and most of the healing you will every need.

Bard is an arcane caster, and it still gets most healing spells to it's arcane spell list. nothing divine on those spells I guess.

IF you limit spells known to current sorcerer level and add 2 spells per levels 1-5 depending on subclass, you could have balanced caster with access to all spells.

example of subclasses and their spell choices:

Healer;
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

Necromancer;
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

Kineticist;
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

Traveler;
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

Greenseer;
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

Pyromancer;
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

Mindbender:
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

Illusionist;
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, minor image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

Defender;
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigbies hand, dispel good and evil

 

[Gorck]

spiritual guardians, aberrations, demons, just summons by another skin. Mostly flavor.

Except the "spiritual" part of Spiritual Guardians implies Divine magic

Also, now 1 level of Life cleric gives wizard heavy armor and most of the healing you will every need.

I'll spare everyone my rant on multiclassing and its problems.

Bard is an arcane caster, and it still gets most healing spells to it's arcane spell list. nothing divine on those spells I guess.

I've always considered the Bard to be neither Arcane nor Divine (nor Primal). To me, they've always been a Jack-of-all-trades that can cast a little bit of Arcane spells, a little bit of Divine spells, combined with a little bit of martial ability, and a little bit of roguishness. But One D&D seems to be taking them in another direction.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Whichever method ends up being chosen, they need to communicate it firmly, otherwise it's going to be a nightmare for Organized Play guys at conventions...

I firmly believe that AL will be 2024 only.