Spiked Chain Rethink

[Thanee]

Do others loath this munkiny weapon?

We simply don't use it in our games.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

Human
Fighter 4
Str 13, Dex 16
[1] EWP (Spiked Chain)
[1] Combat Reflexes
[1] Weapon Finesse
[2] Power Attack (2:1)
[3] Combat Expertise
[4] Improved Trip

[6] Weapon Focus
[6] Weapon Specialization
[8] Improved Disarm

As it is a 4th level character is a very frightening thing, all because of a signle weapon: the spiked chain. It just get's scarier with increase in levels. The spiked chain is the BEST weapon in the game and there is no denying that. Comparing the weapon it is better than all the non-exotics, naturally, but also comparing it to the other exotic weapons it is highly superior as well.

Spiked Chain Features
2-Handed Weapon (Str Mod x1.5)
Super-Reach (10ft & 5ft threatens)
Can Disarm and Trip with weapon
+2 to Disarm
Finessable (Weapon Finesse feat)
Bad crit (20/x2)

The super-reach of the spiked chain almost gaurantees at least 1 extra attack per round due to reach and enemies provoking AoO. In order to attack (with out a reach weapon of their own), an opponent must move through a threatened space, provoking an AoO. This brings the spiked chain in line with the benefits of a double-weapon, with the added benefit that the spiked chain wielder needs only spend a standard action for a single attack (as they can make AoO whenever enemies provoke) and have a move action leftover, where the double-weapon users MUST spend a full-round action to get their extra single attack. Also note that multiple AoOs per round can produce many more extra attacks due to the super-reach of the spiked chain, surpassing the Double-Weapons extra attack benefits. Added to this that the spiked chain deals 2d4 (an extra half-point dmg on average than the other exotics) and the benefits of x1.5 Str as well. Not to mention that there's the additional benefit of magic enhancement cost being much cheaper for a spiked chain as opposed to double-weapon needing to enchant BOTH ends of the weapon.

As a minor fix to the spiked chain, I was surprised to see that the super-reach of the weapon was it's primary fallacy. As a result disallowing the spiked chain to threaten at BOTH 5ft and 10ft solves alot of problems, instead the weapon threatens at EITHER 5ft or 10ft based on the last attack made.

House Rule:
A spiked chain has a 10ft reach but only threatens at either 10ft or 5ft, not both simultaneously. The distance of the last attack made automatically sets the threaten distance for the spiked chain. The wielder may set the distance threatened as a free action.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I just don't see a mechnical problem with the spiked chain. It's highly feat-intensive, hard to find (you'll find a +3 vorpal longsword long before you find a +1 spiked chain), and does low damage (2d4, 20/x2 crit). It's easy enough to sunder, making it a good target for foes.

What's more, it's very similar to the (martial) heavy flail and guisarme, and I've never seen these as overly powerful -- although they certainly see more use IMC than the spiked chain.

Admittedly, I did somewhat weaken 3.5 tripping, but that was in response to monks, not spiked chains.

 

[DanMcS]

What's more, it's very similar to the (martial) heavy flail and guisarme, and I've never seen these as overly powerful -- although they certainly see more use IMC than the spiked chain.

Admittedly, I did somewhat weaken 3.5 tripping, but that was in response to monks, not spiked chains.

I don't think it's terribly feat intensive, especially for monks. Since trip attacks are versus touch ACs, you don't need the proficiency if all you want to do is trip. For a monk, you're probably going to have combat reflexes and improved trip anyway.

You don't especially need improved disarm, because you're 10 feet away and won't take that AoO from them anyway, and as a two-handed weapon you get a +4 bonus to disarm with it. Tripping seems to be useful in combat more often than disarming, anyway. Admittedly, proficiency and improved disarm will give you good disarm bonuses with it, but they aren't totally necessary.

I think Improved Trip shouldn't give a followup attack. The "no AoO" and "+4 to trip check" clauses are sufficient to make it a good feat.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't think it's terribly feat intensive, especially for monks. Since trip attacks are versus touch ACs, you don't need the proficiency if all you want to do is trip. For a monk, you're probably going to have combat reflexes and improved trip anyway.

Wait, wait -- you're having problems with spiked-chain wielding monks? The class barely grants bonus feats, isn't particularly synergistic with weapons (unarmed damage and all), and has only 3/4 BA.

I've never seen, nor even heard of, a spiked chain-wielding monk before today.

I think Improved Trip shouldn't give a followup attack. The "no AoO" and "+4 to trip check" clauses are sufficient to make it a good feat.

You'll get no argument from me here; Improved Trip is really strong in 3.5.

 

[DanMcS]

Wait, wait -- you're having problems with spiked-chain wielding monks? The class barely grants bonus feats, isn't particularly synergistic with weapons (unarmed damage and all), and has only 3/4 BA.

I've never seen, nor even heard of, a spiked chain-wielding monk before today.

We're not really having a problem, I was just pointing out that you don't need to sink a whole lot of feats into spiked chain to make it useful, and a monk often has the minimum feats (combat reflexes and improved trip) already.

I play the monk, for the record, and the spiked chain mostly makes a useful tool for combat reflexes, because it lets me actually get off AoOs. Most combatants can maneuver without overly provoking them if you don't have reach. In that context, it's serving the same purpose any reach weapon would.

I was originally thinking about a kusari-gama type chain weapon that would fit with the monkly flavor, but we eventually just went with the spiked chain. Hence a spiked-chain wielding monk.

 

[CRGreathouse]

We're not really having a problem, I was just pointing out that you don't need to sink a whole lot of feats into spiked chain to make it useful, and a monk often has the minimum feats (combat reflexes and improved trip) already.

I think that I alone in my group have played a spiked-chain wielder, and even there only as DM*. It wasn't gamebreaking as an NPC ally, and no one decided to follow suit and use a spiked chain as a PC.

* OK, I also played a character on these forums with a spiked chain, but it was the same NPC (personality, and nearly the same stats).

 

[Liquidsabre]

I just don't see a mechnical problem with the spiked chain.

Other than the half-dozen or so benefits gained as opposed to other exotic or similar reach weapons? Compare the spiked cahin to every other weapon. Make a list, check it twice. I have. I suggest anyone with doubts do the same. The spiked chain is the only weapon in the core game (any other non-core?) that threatens at both 5ft and 10ft. The weapon is just plain superior to all other exotic weapons, let alone the capabilities it provides for just 1 feat compared to normal weapons + bonus feat. It's quite impressive.

It's highly feat-intensive

No more than any other exotic weapon. A double-bladed sword needs both EWP & TWF to be wielded effectively. A spiked chain but needs EWP & Combat Reflexes to be wielded effectively. The spiked chain is still better than any other exotic weapon with out a doubt, and far superior to any martial weapon and arguably over-powered for a 2 feat expenditure.

hard to find (you'll find a +3 vorpal longsword long before you find a +1 spiked chain),

Perhaps vorpal is a bit extreme of an example, knowing that a vorpal weapon is quite rare itself. As I posted above, compared to other exotic weapons a spiked chain is still cheaper to enchant.

and does low damage (2d4, 20/x2 crit).

Shall I point out again that compared to other 1d8 weapons, the 2d4 does an average of 1/2 a point more? Comparatively the spiked chain does more damage.

It's easy enough to sunder, making it a good target for foes.

As good a target as any other weapon and not any more vulnerable.

What's more, it's very similar to the (martial) heavy flail and guisarme, and I've never seen these as overly powerful -- although they certainly see more use IMC than the spiked chain.

Yet the spiked chain is still superior and these two martial weapons only come close if wielded simultaneously.

A heavy flail has +2 disarm and may make trip attacks but has no reach. A guisarme may trip and has a 10ft reach but cannot disarm (or with a +2 bonus) and does not threaten at 5ft. Plus neither are these weapons finessible. Instead the flail deals an avg. of 5.5 dmg at a 19-20/x2 crit and a guisarme has a x3 crit. Comparatively these 2-handed martial weapons do not measure up to the Spiked Chain's abilities (nor should they, being martial weapons), especially as over time a spiked chain deals significantly more damage with the extra number of attacks provided due to AoO. Nonetheless, it should be argued that a spiked chain+2 feats is greater in power than either of these two martial weapons+2 bonus feats.

Admittedly, I did somewhat weaken 3.5 tripping, but that was in response to monks, not spiked chains.

Do you have tripping interrupt a move action to stand from prone with another trip? This may contribute to any problems as by the RAW this is not possible. I'm sorry if this isn't a problem for you, I don't know what your concerns are here specifically but it is a common misinterpretation that some folk have problems with.

Thanks for your thoughts though CRGreathouse, especially having played a previous spiked chain wielder. It's only that if you list the benefits vs. the resources used, the spiked chain always comes out on top in comparison to other melee weapons. It's this fact that causes many for concern and a munchkin's paradise.

I happen to like the weapon alot, it is a very cool and flavorful weapon. All the more reason I dislike seeing it wielded by munchkiny little powergamers who sweep the battlefield with the sheer numbers of attacks they make every round and the amounts of carnage they sow.

I'd like to see the spiked chain see use but without the derision or groans from other gamers. Seeing a spiked chain in regular use over the course of a campaign does wonders for convincing the non-believer otherwise.

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

I've pointed this out before but here are my thoughts:

1. A SC-Fighter needs 4 of the 6 Attributes to be at least 13. Str for PA which is indeed quite good for the 2handed SC. Dex needs to be at least 12 if Combat Reflexes ought to be any good. If he wants to go the AoO-route he needs to have a 14. Con is important for anyone especially for melee-types. And finally you need Int 13 which doesn't contribute one bit to combat.
2. Lets take a look at its features: needs EWP, "improved reach" (5ft & 10ft), tripping, disarm +2, won't show up in treasures often (DM discretion), Dmg 2W4/x20. Compare this to: Halberd: 2 different damage types, martial weapon, set vs charge, tripping, Dmg 1W10/x3; So the SC gives you for EWP: +2 on Disarm and the imp reach at the cost of lower damage, lower Crit-Mod, set vs charge and one feat. And you'll propably find a "special" (=dragonbane, ghost touch, holy, etc) Halberd long before a "special" SC.
3. I've played a SC-Fighter an in my experience you get those reach-extra-attacks exactely once per battle - at the beginning. From round 2 on the reach doesn`t do much any more. Our priest had to spend his spells otherwise (mainly for healing) and since our Sorc didn`t have the spell, there was no enlarge person. You could use potions but they might not be available at any time and it will become expensive very quickly, especially at low levels.
4. The Greatsword wielder will be stronger, have more HP (propably), be able to fight effectively against huge quadrupeds (which tend to have huge str-scores) , deal more damage per hit (higher Str, higher Base Dmg, better Crit) and he won't ever lose his weapon, even if he botches his way of fighting (by the RAW).
5. Dodge + Mobility will give +5 AC against the SC-Fighter...

I think the SC might be the best weapon against other humanoids since all its special abilities come to bear against them. Thats why the SC will come out ahead when compared to other humanoid fighters. If the PCs are facing various monsters instead of humanoids other weapons will be better.

Kodam

 

[CRGreathouse]

Other than the half-dozen or so benefits gained as opposed to other exotic or similar reach weapons? Compare the spiked cahin to every other weapon. Make a list, check it twice. I have. I suggest anyone with doubts do the same. The spiked chain is the only weapon in the core game (any other non-core?) that threatens at both 5ft and 10ft. The weapon is just plain superior to all other exotic weapons, let alone the capabilities it provides for just 1 feat compared to normal weapons + bonus feat. It's quite impressive.

I listed 2 comparable weapons. The only unique benefit to the spiked chain is its special reach; the other two have its benefits covered. Both of the other weapons deal more damage on average, and both have better crits (either threat range or multiplier). Giving up damage on two fronts and a feat for dual reach seems like a fair trade.

With 5' steps, a normal reach weapon is nearly as good as a special reach weapon. The major difference is that the spiked chain is better for Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave (not so much for Cleave). But both of these are feat-heavy paths, especially considering that you've already sunk two feats - EWP and Combat Reflexes -- on the spiked chain that the other characters can spend on WFocus and WSpecialization, say.

Shall I point out again that compared to other 1d8 weapons, the 2d4 does an average of 1/2 a point more? Comparatively the spiked chain does more damage.

The only two-handed martial weapon that deals 1d8 damage or less (on average) is the lance. Is this what you're comparing the spiked chain to?

As good a target as any other weapon and not any more vulnerable.

A better target, since the weapon is less valuable as loot (since few specialize with it) and, as a feat-intensive weapon, you're likely to deny your opponent more comparitive advantage.

Comparatively these 2-handed martial weapons do not measure up to the Spiked Chain's abilities (nor should they, being martial weapons), especially as over time a spiked chain deals significantly more damage with the extra number of attacks provided due to AoO. Nonetheless, it should be argued that a spiked chain+2 feats is greater in power than either of these two martial weapons+2 bonus feats.

The guisarme-wielder will get just as many attacks of opportunity, and spend two fewer feats on basics than the spiked chain user will. This leads to much more damage (WF + WS), unless the spiked chain user has something to tip the balance like Whirlwind Attack.

Do you have tripping interrupt a move action to stand from prone with another trip? This may contribute to any problems as by the RAW this is not possible. I'm sorry if this isn't a problem for you, I don't know what your concerns are here specifically but it is a common misinterpretation that some folk have problems with.

No I don't; this is, as you pointed out, a misinterpretation of the rules.

Thanks for your thoughts though CRGreathouse, especially having played a previous spiked chain wielder. It's only that if you list the benefits vs. the resources used, the spiked chain always comes out on top in comparison to other melee weapons. It's this fact that causes many for concern and a munchkin's paradise.

I happen to like the weapon alot, it is a very cool and flavorful weapon. All the more reason I dislike seeing it wielded by munchkiny little powergamers who sweep the battlefield with the sheer numbers of attacks they make every round and the amounts of carnage they sow.

I'd like to see the spiked chain see use but without the derision or groans from other gamers. Seeing a spiked chain in regular use over the course of a campaign does wonders for convincing the non-believer otherwise.

It strikes me as unusual that you've seen such problems with the spiked chain, when I've seen none -- I'm usually quick to find 'broken' material and disallow it IMC.

In any case, it's been good trading stories with you....