Spiked Chain Rethink

[Liquidsabre]

the other two have its benefits covered. Both of the other weapons deal more damage on average, and both have better crits (either threat range or multiplier). Giving up damage on two fronts and a feat for dual reach seems like a fair trade.

Except that the loss of damage on the SC's part is illusory.

You see the super-reach of the SC provide's the wepaon with many MORE attacks than either of the two weapons you mention would normally receive thanks to AoO. Thus the spiked chain ultimately out-damages other comparable non-reach weapons. As you say, if the SC gave up damage then we would have, as you say, a fair trade. Unfortunately this isn't exactly the case.

The only two-handed martial weapon that deals 1d8 damage or less (on average) is the lance. Is this what you're comparing the spiked chain to?

Actually I'm comparing the spiked chain to (being an exotic wepaon) to other exotic weapons. But that's a good point and yet still the SC will out damage all of those other 2-handed martial weapons due to it's higher number of attacks the weapon receives through AoO. I'm curious as to why you might neglect the occurence of AoO when refering to damage output but mention it below?

A better target, since the weapon is less valuable as loot (since few specialize with it) and, as a feat-intensive weapon, you're likely to deny your opponent more comparitive advantage.

I'm not sure this is a viable argument. Afterall, a fighter who specialies with the bastard sword (a feat-intensive weapon?) will see all other weapons they fight against as open target's for sundering (if they decided to spend 2 feats to be able to do effectively) since they specialize only with bastard swords. C'mon really now, feat intensive? We're talking about fighters here right? The guys that feats are dime-a-dozen?

Sounds like you had a rough time finding a skilled weaponsmith to make you spiked chains hmm? I doubt it should be as difficult as you're making it out to be to get a hold of and enchant SCs in a core-game (a no low-wealth/magic game).

The guisarme-wielder will get just as many attacks of opportunity, and spend two fewer feats on basics than the spiked chain user will. This leads to much more damage (WF + WS), unless the spiked chain user has something to tip the balance like Whirlwind Attack.

Close but not quite. You see to get the same number of attacks the guisarme-wielder still must also select combat reflexes. This only gives the guisarme-wielder a 1 feat lead on the SC-wielder. For the expenditure for a single feat the SC gets: super-reach = not vulnerable within 5ft to grapples, sunders, trips, casters, etc., can disarm with a +2, finessible.

No I don't; this is, as you pointed out, a misinterpretation of the rules.

Oh good, I didn't think it was but just wanted to make sure all the bases were covered.

It strikes me as unusual that you've seen such problems with the spiked chain, when I've seen none -- I'm usually quick to find 'broken' material and disallow it IMC.

Not just myself as you should note, there are quite a few others to say the least. I'd wait until you've seen a wielder with all the synergies stacked (multiple feats yes), call it feat-intensive if you will, vs a fighter of the same level witha comparable weapon and the same number of feats. Have you sat down lately and compared fighter builds for example?

In any case, it's been good trading stories with you....

Well sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but I do appreciate your views on this. Your point on normal reach weapons and the number of attacks being relatively equal to the spiked chain wielder is pretty good. It's just that once you get past those first few feats the synergies of the spiked chain jump beyond comparable weapons such as the guisarme. The guisarme just can't keep up over the long run, in versitality and power.

Compare even at 4th level two fighters:

Ftr 4
Guisarme-Wielder
[1] Weapon focus
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Combat Expertise
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Improved Trip
[6] *bonus feat*

Ftr 4
Spiked Chain-Wielder
[1] Exotic Weapon Proficiency
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Weapon Focus
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Combat Expertise
[6] Improved Trip

Note the guisarme-wileder is just as specialized as the SC-wielder. Comparing the builds we can see there are more than enough feats for the SC-wielder, not only that but the SC needs only one more feat (EWP) than the normal reach weapon. For this ONE extra feat the SC gains disarm +2, super-reach, and finessibility. C'mon, you can't say that the spiked chain is still not the best bang for your buck? And I don't think availability is really much of an issue unless you are playing a non-core game with low-magic and low-wealth.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You see the super-reach of the SC provide's the wepaon with many MORE attacks than either of the two weapons you mention would normally receive thanks to AoO. Thus the spiked chain ultimately out-damages other comparable non-reach weapons. As you say, if the SC gave up damage then we would have, as you say, a fair trade. Unfortunately this isn't exactly the case.

As I said, the AoO are from the reach, not the "super-reach"; a guisarme has the same benefits.

Have you sat down lately and compared fighter builds for example?

Of course, dozens of builds. I'm a DM, so I do quite a lot of character building and comparing of NPCs.

The guisarme just can't keep up over the long run, in versitality and power.

Compare even at 4th level two fighters:

Ftr 4
Guisarme-Wielder
[1] Weapon focus
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Power Attack
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Combat Expertise
[6] Improved Trip

Ftr 4
Spiked Chain-Wielder
[1] Exotic Weapon Proficiency
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Weapon Focus
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Combat Expertise
[6] Improved Trip

To be fair, the guisarme-wielder deals more damage in all circumstances and has the potential to do much more with 2-for-1 Power Attack. The build becomes even better with a simple change of Combat Expertise for Cleave for the guisarme-wielder; suddenly, the only real advantage the spiked chain has (fighting lots of opponents with low hp and getting AoOs) is a situation in which the guisarme handles better.

If the spiked chain build drops CE and WS for PA and Cleave, the guisarme deals +2.5 damage per hit, a pretty good jump.

I'm not saying the spiked chain is necessarily weak, but I just don't see that it's better than other weapons -- let alone so much better that other weapons are outshined and can't compete.

C'mon, you can't say that the spiked chain is still not the best bang for your buck?

No, I can't say that. I will say that for a single-classed fighter using only core feats at high levels (12-18+), the spiked chain is a viable path simple because few weapons make all chains of feats useful simutaneously.

Frankly, below level 6 I think the spiked chain is worse than other weapons. Only when the character gains many feats can it truly compete.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The spiked chains only advatage over the heavy flail is that it has a 10' reach and can threaten adjacent squares, oh and you can use weapon finese in conjucntion with it.
In exchange it averages .5 point of damage less than a heavy flail, requires a feat to use, and scores critical hits half as often (19-20 as compared to 20).

This seems like a pretty fair trade.
Maybe lower it's damage to a d8 would balance it out a bit more.
Or further decrease the damage by getting rid of the spiked part (which as others have said are unrealistic) and make it only deal a d6 damage.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Compare even at 4th level two fighters:

Ftr 4
Guisarme-Wielder
[1] Weapon focus
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Combat Expertise
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Improved Trip
[6] *bonus feat*

Ftr 4
Spiked Chain-Wielder
[1] Exotic Weapon Proficiency
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Weapon Focus
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Combat Expertise
[6] Improved Trip

Another take on the Guisarme wielder:
Ftr 4
Guisarme-Wielder
[1] Weapon focus
[2] Combat Reflexes
[3] Combat Expertise
[4] Weapon Specialization
[6] Improved Trip
[6] Improved Disarm

and he also wears armour spikes - which give him a nice weapon which he can use happily against adjacent targets, so he doesn't suffer quite so much from the fact that you can't use the guisarme against someone adjacent to you. The feat not spent on EWP goes instead on improved disarm, making him considerably better at disarming than the spiked chain user (no AoO provoked, +4 vs +2, can't be disarmed in return if your attempt fails).

THus in this comparison the guisarme wielder is better at disarming, the same at area control and AoO and better crits (x3), slightly weaker if they have to fight someone adjacent to them and can't step back first. Seems a pretty even match really.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The spiked chains only advatage over the heavy flail is that it has a 10' reach and can threaten adjacent squares, oh and you can use weapon finese in conjucntion with it.

In exchange it averages .5 point of damage less than a heavy flail, requires a feat to use, and scores critical hits half as often (19-20 as compared to 20).

Except the Spiked Chain will deal more damage due to it's AoO it receieves thanks to it's reach.

 

[Liquidsabre]

THus in this comparison the guisarme wielder is better at disarming, the same at area control and AoO and better crits (x3), slightly weaker if they have to fight someone adjacent to them and can't step back first. Seems a pretty even match really.

Sorry Plane, you cannot disarm with a guisarme. While a spiked chain can both trip and disarm at a +2 bonus, a guisarme can only trip opponents. Or do you mean disarm with unarmed strikes?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Except the Spiked Chain will deal more damage due to it's AoO it receieves thanks to it's reach.

Thats why its an exotic weapon and why I proposed possibly lowering its damage to 1d6.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Another take on the Guisarme wielder:......
and he also wears armour spikes - which give him a nice weapon which he can use happily against adjacent targets,

and now he needs 2 magic weapons, and looses out on FW and WS
a spiked armor/guisarme wielder still has disadvantages that a SC wielder lacks.

The guisarme is at least a real weapon, although from what Ive read its base form was considered inferior and improved to a glaive-guisarme, guisarme- hook and guisarm-bill. (unearthed arcane 1st ed. Nomenclature of polearms)
This is testimony to the fact that the weapon was well used, by a variety of armies across the middle ages - the spike chain in comparison -
Ninjas(mabey) - Spawn - Demon - 3.0 core

d6 for a non-spiked chain? or d4 (no exotic feat if d4)
what are the rules for Kusri-gama? is it exotic in OA?

 

[Victim]

Sorry Plane, you cannot disarm with a guisarme. While a spiked chain can both trip and disarm at a +2 bonus, a guisarme can only trip opponents. Or do you mean disarm with unarmed strikes?

You don't need a special weapon to disarm, only trip. Any weapon can make disarm attacks.

 

[FireLance]

Sorry Plane, you cannot disarm with a guisarme. While a spiked chain can both trip and disarm at a +2 bonus, a guisarme can only trip opponents. Or do you mean disarm with unarmed strikes?

Um, you can disarm with a guisarme, or any melee weapon, in fact. You just provoke an AOO if you don't have Improved Disarm, that's all.