D&D (2024) Spirt Guardians
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
As I posted in the other thread, my tentative suggestion is to let it deal damage by movement of the caster only on the caster turn. This maintains the possibility of pushing enemies in the area of the emanation, but prevents any benefits by dragging the caster.
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Daztur
Hero
Yeah, having people give the caster piggyback rides round the battle has the potential to get rather goofy.
mellored
Legend
Silly looking aside, Has anyone actually tried this?
Because I feel like everyone is assuming you can run around with infinite movement and without opportunity attacks.
For example. There is a monster between you and adjacent to the cleric. So you need to move 15' around them, grab the cleric, and move another 15' to get the enemy out of the zone, and your out of movement.
and even as a monk, is it worth giving up 4 of your 5 attacks?
I'm sure it will be a good tactics on occasion, like against a zombie horde, but I'm not sure it's a go-to tactic.
Because I feel like everyone is assuming you can run around with infinite movement and without opportunity attacks.
For example. There is a monster between you and adjacent to the cleric. So you need to move 15' around them, grab the cleric, and move another 15' to get the enemy out of the zone, and your out of movement.
and even as a monk, is it worth giving up 4 of your 5 attacks?
I'm sure it will be a good tactics on occasion, like against a zombie horde, but I'm not sure it's a go-to tactic.
Willie the Duck
Hero
I said it elsewhere -- being yo-yoed into and out of a damaging experience should not do more* than staying in it for the six whole seconds of the round. My group has ruled on all ongoing AoEs:
Characters are damaged the first time their position and the spell affect area overlap within a one-round timeframe resetting at the end of their turn. Thus, if it is cast upon them or they are pushed into it (or it is moved over them), they take immediate damage*, and then if they fail to move out of the area by the end of their turn, they will get more damage at that point.
*And the rare exceptions should be built like Spike Growth.
**no safely dashing in front of a Wall of Fire because you didn't end your turn there.
Characters are damaged the first time their position and the spell affect area overlap within a one-round timeframe resetting at the end of their turn. Thus, if it is cast upon them or they are pushed into it (or it is moved over them), they take immediate damage*, and then if they fail to move out of the area by the end of their turn, they will get more damage at that point.
*And the rare exceptions should be built like Spike Growth.
**no safely dashing in front of a Wall of Fire because you didn't end your turn there.
Much like the XGtE spell Healing Spirit, or the now oft-mentioned PHB2024 Conjure Minor Elemental, I suspect this is much more of a potential issue than a realized one*. However, much like those, I think thought to house-ruling probably still helps. It saves everyone the headache of players seeing this possibility and trying hell to leather to set it up in-play. *Healing Spirit less so, as the abusive scenario worked out of combat.
Lazybones
Adventurer
I think I would want to see some examples of this tactic in play before making a final ruling in my group. It would require a dedicated build from multiple party members to pull off to full efficiency.
I don't see anything that suggests that carrying someone negates the Carrying Capacity rules, so the carrier would need a high strength (meaning that a Dex-focused monk isn't likely to be able to do it, unless they aren't carrying much gear and neither is the carried PC). So probably a halfling or gnome cleric for maximum effect, with a barbarian with the Grappler feat as the carrier. One of them should have the Alert feat since the exploit is less effective if the carrier goes first (unless they're being carried/grappled at the start of the combat, I suppose?). Whether the cleric is able to wear armor depends on how strong the carrying PC is (and whether they had time to shuck packs before the fight begins... those default backpacks in the PH are heavy). Heck, I suppose if you really want to increase the synergy, add a party wizard who casts reduce on the cleric on the first round of the fight, or enlarge on the barbarian. RAW you need a hand free to carry someone which I would definitely enforce, since if you're allowed to tuck the ally cleric into a backpack and still use two-handed weapons or a shield this really gets crazy.
This exploit also assumes that the monsters are passive. If they are intelligent, they would be able to see what's causing all this damage and would focus all of their attacks on the cleric. Based on the range of the Emanation, said cleric would have to be pretty close to the action. At fifth level, many foes should be able to absorb a few blasts of spirit guardians and still have some fight left in them.
This does seem like an extremely powerful tactic against multiple weak foes. I could see this clearing out a room full of low-CR Beasts in one round, given the right conditions (i.e., it's less effective if there isn't enough room to maneuver around the battlefield, or if the enemies are spread out).
I don't see anything that suggests that carrying someone negates the Carrying Capacity rules, so the carrier would need a high strength (meaning that a Dex-focused monk isn't likely to be able to do it, unless they aren't carrying much gear and neither is the carried PC). So probably a halfling or gnome cleric for maximum effect, with a barbarian with the Grappler feat as the carrier. One of them should have the Alert feat since the exploit is less effective if the carrier goes first (unless they're being carried/grappled at the start of the combat, I suppose?). Whether the cleric is able to wear armor depends on how strong the carrying PC is (and whether they had time to shuck packs before the fight begins... those default backpacks in the PH are heavy). Heck, I suppose if you really want to increase the synergy, add a party wizard who casts reduce on the cleric on the first round of the fight, or enlarge on the barbarian. RAW you need a hand free to carry someone which I would definitely enforce, since if you're allowed to tuck the ally cleric into a backpack and still use two-handed weapons or a shield this really gets crazy.
This exploit also assumes that the monsters are passive. If they are intelligent, they would be able to see what's causing all this damage and would focus all of their attacks on the cleric. Based on the range of the Emanation, said cleric would have to be pretty close to the action. At fifth level, many foes should be able to absorb a few blasts of spirit guardians and still have some fight left in them.
This does seem like an extremely powerful tactic against multiple weak foes. I could see this clearing out a room full of low-CR Beasts in one round, given the right conditions (i.e., it's less effective if there isn't enough room to maneuver around the battlefield, or if the enemies are spread out).
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
*grappling someone is not carrying them.
Colloquially we might refer to moving around a grappled creature as carrying them but by the rules those are 2 different things.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
No one is assuming the cleric stays far away or that the monsters do nothing. Like seriously?
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
I've been in four campaigns in the last couple of years and each one of them has had a cleric with Spirit Guardians. It's only the most recent one where we've had shenanigans with movement in it, and that was Telekinesis and ... I think Tavern Brawler.
In all of these three cases it has been an effective move, but not so effective that the DM talked about changes or banning it.
I think the only case where it would become an issue would be where the whole party was built around it and you did this more than a couple times a round.
I've found that D&D monsters, especially at higher levels, tend to be big piles of hit points. This sort of activity helps keep the fights manageable in length.
In all of these three cases it has been an effective move, but not so effective that the DM talked about changes or banning it.
I think the only case where it would become an issue would be where the whole party was built around it and you did this more than a couple times a round.
I've found that D&D monsters, especially at higher levels, tend to be big piles of hit points. This sort of activity helps keep the fights manageable in length.
