Stacking +1 ammo with +1 Weapons

[comrade raoul]

...until you factor in Greater Magic Weapon.

The simple, elegant solution is just to revise greater magic weapon so that it doesn't apply to ammunition. I have no idea why they didn't do that in the 3.5 revision.

 

[Vanye]

Then why do arrows have the same base cost to enhance as melee weapons? If they were cheaper, your argument would hold water, but as it is, the rules contradict your claim.

They are created in batches of 50, so technically, they are cheaper.
A single +1 arrow costs 40 gp (1x1x2000gp, /50 = 40gp).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Arrows can be used as an improvised melee weapon (-4 to hit, treat as a dagger for damage). They are not destroyed in this manner since they are no longer "ammunition".

It's not only ammunition that's destroyed, however; it's also arrows. The arrow may not be being used as ammunition, but it is still an arrow.

Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

If you use your arrow as an improvised melee weapon, you've arguably still a 50% chance of losing it even if you miss...

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

Allowing them to stack wouldn't be too unbalanced. Since the arrow could just as easily be made with special abilities (which are just as effective, if no moreso, than straight enhancement bonuses), the only advantage is that the requisite, initial +1 enhancement isn't wasted.

Also, arrows can be overly expensive to use regularly in a long running game anyway, so (essentially) giving them an extra +1 likely wouldn't really be unbalancing (i.e. since arrows are currently overpriced).

That, and it allows archers to keep up with the power attacking fighters using 2 hnded weapons, at least until they runout of arrows.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Interesting. So, an arrow used as an improvised melee weapon that hits should - by strict RAW - be destroyed every time. Huh. I wonder if that is intentional or an oversight since they didn't expect them to really be used as melee weapons.

In a way it makes sense, since an arrow shaft is fairly arrow and could snap off easily.

 

[irdeggman]

It's not only ammunition that's destroyed, however; it's also arrows. The arrow may not be being used as ammunition, but it is still an arrow.

Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

If you use your arrow as an improvised melee weapon, you've arguably still a 50% chance of losing it even if you miss...

-Hyp.

True if you use the text under arrows alone.

Now the text under ammunition and magical ammunition leads one to believe this should only apply when used as ammunition.

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that hits is destroyed.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

 

[irdeggman]

Interesting. So, an arrow used as an improvised melee weapon that hits should - by strict RAW - be destroyed every time. Huh. I wonder if that is intentional or an oversight since they didn't expect them to really be used as melee weapons.

In a way it makes sense, since an arrow shaft is fairly arrow and could snap off easily.

No it doesn't. The text for magical ones is under "ammunition". An improvised melee weapon is no longer ammuntion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

True if you use the text under arrows alone.

Now the text under ammunition and magical ammunition leads one to believe this should only apply when used as ammunition.

Whereas I'd say that the text under arrows indicates that arrows can be lost or destroyed, and the text under ammunition indicates that ammunition can be destroyed. The one doesn't have to be dependent on the other...

Or, alternatively - reading it as written means that you can't get a permanent magical weapon for 40gp. Reading as you're doing means you can...

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Whereas I'd say that the text under arrows indicates that arrows can be lost or destroyed, and the text under ammunition indicates that ammunition can be destroyed. The one doesn't have to be dependent on the other...

Or, alternatively - reading it as written means that you can't get a permanent magical weapon for 40gp. Reading as you're doing means you can...

-Hyp.

Which leaves us with 50% of the time they are lost or destroyed when they miss. So how do you "lose" something in your hand

I can fully understand that there should be a chance of damaging an arrow when used as a melee weapon (since the shaft is not particularly strong) - but that is not really addressed here. Also the impact from being used as a projectile imparts more stress (hence the increased damage from being shot vice stabbing).

Alos the text for ammunition damage is reproduced under arrow, bolts and bullets - so the implication is that it is for ammunition use and not for melee use.

As far as getting real cheap magic weapons this way - that was my point. That the rules for magical ammunition are "broken". The fact that they can be used as improvised melee weapons only points this out.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which leaves us with 50% of the time they are lost or destroyed when they miss. So how do you "lose" something in your hand

Flavour text it. Since they're lost or destroyed, you might describe all such incidents in melee as 'destroyed' rather than 'lost' - shattered by a parry, or breaking on the opponent's armour, or whatever.

I can fully understand that there should be a chance of damaging an arrow when used as a melee weapon (since the shaft is not particularly strong) - but that is not really addressed here.

Well, that's where we differ. It think it's addressed here directly, in the description of arrows.

Alos the text for ammunition damage is reproduced under arrow, bolts and bullets - so the implication is that it is for ammunition use and not for melee use.

If arrows can be used as ammunition or in melee, then why should the text under arrows be restricted to ammunition use just because the ammunition text says the same thing?

Ammunition can break. Hence the text under ammunition. Arrows can break. Hence the text under arrows.

If I wanted to write a rule that meant that arrows are destroyed on a successful hit, whether they are used as ammunition or melee weapons, I would put a note in the description of arrows that says "arrows are destroyed on a successful hit". When I look at the description of arrows, I find a note that says "arrows are destroyed on a successful hit".

You're saying that because there's also a note under ammunition that says "ammunition is destroyed on a successful hit", it changes the meaning of that sentence under arrows; I can't see how that is relevant.

As far as getting real cheap magic weapons this way - that was my point.

But I don't agree that the point is a valid one, since those real cheap magic weapons, per the description of arrows, will be destroyed on a successful hit (and lost or destroyed half the rest of the time).

-Hyp.