Stacking +1 ammo with +1 Weapons

[irdeggman]

Just got this back from Cust Serv at WotC.

Now just to point out my opinion of Cust Serv - I don't think they are very reliable or accurate at all {even though they are siding with me on this one - my opinion is still the same on their "authority" and "reliability".

Well anyway this is what I got:

________________________________________________
Subject
Using arrows as improvised melee weapons

Discussion Thread
Response (Trevor K.)
09/05/2006 09:36 AM
Hey there Duane. The rules for ammunition apply when you are using them as ammunition. If you want to use a bolt or arrow as a melee weapon, it would not necessarily be destroyed or as it would if it were being used as ammunition. There are no rules stating that if it is used as a melee weapon it is automatically destroyed, but the DM of your campaign could create house rules for this as it is unclear. Have fun and good gaming!

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Customer (Duane Eggert)
09/02/2006 02:44 PM

If a character uses an arrow as an improvised melee weapon is it destroyed on a hit?

If he misses is it destroyed (or lost) 50% of the time?

How about a bolt?

What if it is magical?

Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Bolts: A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (crit x2). Bolts come in a wooden case that holds 10 bolts (or 5, for a repeating crossbow). A bolt that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Now they are validating my opinion that WotC really didn't think about how to handle arrows (and bolts) when used as improvised melee weapons. But as for my opinion of the "source" . . . . .

 

[Storyteller01]

Hey! There still be DR/Epic in 3.5e. If we allow enhancement bonus stacking, an archer with +3 bow and +3 arrows can bypass DR of, say, Aspects. While melee fighters can only bypass this unless he has a +4 or better weapon with appropriate bane ability or an artifact.

Not quite. The highest bonus is used, not the total. Neither the bow or the arrow has a +6 enhancement bonus by itself, so neither is epic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not quite. The highest bonus is used, not the total. Neither the bow or the arrow has a +6 enhancement bonus by itself, so neither is epic.

You missed the important qualifier in his comment, "If we allow enhancement bonus stacking..."

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

You missed the important qualifier in his comment, "If we allow enhancement bonus stacking..."

-Hyp.

Maybe, but as I understand it stacking bonuses, however high, doesn't qualify something as epic.

The fighter with the +4 bane vs dragons longsword isn't wielding an epic blade when fighting a dragon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Maybe, but as I understand it stacking bonuses, however high, doesn't qualify something as epic.

The fighter with the +4 bane vs dragons longsword isn't wielding an epic blade when fighting a dragon.

He's wielding a blade that will beat a dragon's DR X/Epic.

"A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus."

"A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus."

For the purpose of defeating DR X/Epic, an 'epic weapon' is defined as 'a magic weapon with at least a +6 enhancement bonus'. A +5 Acidic Blast Longsword might fit a definition of 'epic weapon' (Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5), but it will not defeat DR X/Epic; it does not have at least a +6 enhancement bonus.

Against a dragon, however, a +4 Dragonbane sword has an effective enhancement bonus of +6; therefore, against a dragon, this sword meets the definition of 'epic weapon' that is relevant to DR X/Epic.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

As Hyp pointed out the issue is "stacking" bonuses. {which aren't currerntly allowed}.

So if an arrow and a bow's enhancement bonuses are allowed to stack then a +3 bow firing a +3 arrow will bypass DR/epic since the total enhancement bonus will be +6 in the context we are talking about.

 

[Nyeshet]

One thing I've at times considered is having the +x on bows to deal only with the attack roll and the +x on arrows to deal only with the damage roll. The problem, then, comes with dealing with special properties. If the bow only accepts specials that affect the attack roll (and non-damage effects such as Distance and Speed), and the arrow is the only means of accepting damage properties such as flaming or frost, how would that effect the game? Then there is the fact that sometimes these rules get skewed a bit - such as by composite bows (which, if you have the Str to use it, increase damage based on the bow - not the arrow).

 

[ElectricDragon]

Now, if you want to talk about important sub-abilities and compare those, and archer does have to buy a new weapon to take advantage of an increased STR - but then again only if they are using a bow...But yes, the bow user needs a new piece of equipment when his STR goes up. However, the fighter typically also needs a new piece of equipment when his DEX goes up, too. It's just not his weapon, its his armor.

So, the fighter in full plate+3 that raises his Dex to 14 will buy a new set of armor to take full advantage of his new Dex? He will still get the full Dex on skill checks, Initiative, Reflex saves, and missile weapon attacks without buying anything at all. Is it worth it for him to buy mithral full plate +3 to gain +1 AC? If so, then he has other options: just get a ring of protection +1 or an ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC instead. Then later, when he can afford the armor upgrade, it will still be available.

The archer, on the other hand, would gain Str bonuses for melee attacks and damage, non-bow/crossbow missile damage, and skill checks. Is there a cheap ring or ioun stone that will increase his bow weapon damage or does he need to invest in a new undead bane, flaming composite long bow (+2 Str) +3 just to get one more point of damage per hit? Ah, yes, 50 +4 arrows is cheap, yet would last only six to ten encounters or so. Pity that swords don't wear out so quickly (or at all).

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

So, the fighter in full plate+3 that raises his Dex to 14 will buy a new set of armor to take full advantage of his new Dex? He will still get the full Dex on skill checks, Initiative, Reflex saves, and missile weapon attacks without buying anything at all. Is it worth it for him to buy mithral full plate +3 to gain +1 AC? If so, then he has other options: just get a ring of protection +1 or an ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC instead. Then later, when he can afford the armor upgrade, it will still be available.

Ciao
Dave

What is the AC penalty for full plate?

Masterwork full plate AC penalty -5. Applies to most Dex skill checks.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

sorry about not reading the whole thread, maybe this as been brougth up in one way or another.

I see two problems.

One is that in 3.5. Enhanced arrows are broken. You only get 50 uses and thats the equivelent of a weapon at the same price? now thats really sucky. I love archers but man... its not worth it to shell out the gold, as at some point or another, you blew all your gold on arrows that you wont have later. So this is a problem becuse nones going to buy enhanced arrows. Its too weak and too expensive.

Now the other problem is the claric in 3.0, and having arrow and bows stack, and this i know has been coverd.

But the the problem now in 3.5 is that arrows do suck. How can this be fixed? should it go back to the way it was in 3.0? If so, how can we make the claric not broken with this combo, but still a fun and powerfull/usefull combo?