Stacking penalties, solos, and . . . *sigh* sadness. :(

[Trevelyan]

Well, level 12 vs. a level 12 solo (with allies to make the encounter as a whole level 15).

In my experience solos work better a few levels above that of the party. An equal level solo, even with a few friends, just isn't much of a threat. Out f interest, what were the other monsters doing why the party was focusing fire on the dragon? Were they not able to interfer or make use of the distraction?

The bard got to roll twice per round since he is, I believe, a twiceborn leader, which is a warlord paragon path. The dragon's Will was 28, but with +6 level, +6 Cha, +3 item, +1 implement mastery (house ruled in as a freebie, but there anyway), he had a pretty good shot of hitting each round.

Rolling twice is the killer there, otherwise the bard had less than a 50% chance of hitting.

Is it fair to say that the party used up most of their resources on this encounter? In which case you could always follow it up with something pretty nasty to shake them up a bit before they get a chance to take a long rest. Nothing like an 'epilogue' fight to make them sweat.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Encounters against lone creatures in any edition are tricky simply due to the single threat gang-up factor. 4E added a ton of HP to solo critters with the net effect being simply more time until the creature is worn down.

It becomes difficult to design any single thing that the party can actually defeat without the battle becoming a simple attrition grind.

Lone critters work well with other challenges that require attention that do not have to be other monsters. Environmental factors and event type challenges can work with solos to make sure the party has to divide it's attention.

1) Captives in danger from something that cannot wait until after the fight.

2) An important treasure in similar peril.

3) The combat location itself can be unstable and require attention or the entire area (which might be important for some reason) will be destroyed.

4) A machine/ritual/thingy needs to be stopped (or started) and time is critical.

The threat should be difficult enough to require several PC's actions but perhaps not all at once. A threat that requires a few PC's to do something every other round or so and the PC's can swap up taking turns fighting the critter. As long as entire party can't focus on the monster every round then the danger/ tension level should improve somewhat.

 

[KarinsDad]

Another thing to remember.

Psychic Lock is to a single attack roll.

So, the Dragon is at -4 to its first attack roll and -2 to subsequent attack rolls.

If the Dragon can get an OA in after the Bard attack, great. It's at -4 and the next set of attacks are -2.

In any case, Double Attack and the Breath Weapon should have been only slightly penalized.

The other aspect of this is to whale on the Bard. The most problematic foe is the one that the Dragon should kill or at least put a condition on outright.

 

[Mengu]

Maybe this is a level problem.

I typically use slightly higher level solos. Sometimes I have solos hitting certain defenses on the roll of a 3 or 4. When that number goes up to a 6 or 8 because of penalties, I don't think I'd complain.

Few sessions ago, I had a controller solo with a +12 vs reflex attack, the 5th level party had reflex defenses of 16's and 17's, and I was hitting fairly easily in the absence of debuffs.

I can see there being a problem if you use a level equivalent brute attacking AC against a high AC party. A 5th level Solo Brute may have a +8 vs AC attack. Against my party's defenders, this solo would already be needing 15's to hit. With a debuff or two, he would need 17's or 19's to hit which is pretty terrible. Add a zone defense buff from the paladin, and that solo isn't a threat at all.

When designing encounters for any given party, I think these factors need to be taken into consideration.

Also against 6-man parties, solos are especially vulnerable. I pretty much throw away the current design, and start from scratch if I want my party to fight a lone solo. I give them a save against one condition at the beginning of their turn, minor action attacks, immediate interrupts that really screw the attacker, an aura, some crazy damage encounter attack that recharges when bloodied, and a gold doc-wagon contract.

If your players know what they are doing, then your solos need a serious upgrade. If your players haven't figured out the game yet, a standard MM solo can be a PC killer.

 

[Akaiku]

If your players know what they are doing, then your solos need a serious upgrade. If your players haven't figured out the game yet, a standard MM solo can be a PC killer.

Occasionally, parties are not built to stack lots of buffs or debuffs as well. Swordmage/S+B fighter/Shaman/Warlock/Bravura Warlord, for instance.

 

[Nebulous]

Well, i ran a 5th level party against an 8th level solo homebrew solo monster and it got totally owned. Pinning Smash immobilized the monster for half of the encounter, and it had no way to break free of its own accord, which is sort of strange considering it's Huge and the attacker was Medium.

 

[Mengu]

Well, i ran a 5th level party against an 8th level solo homebrew solo monster and it got totally owned. Pinning Smash immobilized the monster for half of the encounter, and it had no way to break free of its own accord, which is sort of strange considering it's Huge and the attacker was Medium.

Just a quick tip, Bull Rush is a fairly easy way to break pinning smash.

 

[Nebulous]

Just a quick tip, Bull Rush is a fairly easy way to break pinning smash.

But how do you Bull Rush when you're immobilized? And it was against a dwarf who has Stand Your Ground, so per raw it wouldn't push her even one square away if it DID work.

 

[NMcCoy]

In 4e you don't need a moving start to Bull Rush, but the dwarf thing is indeed a problem.

 

[Lauberfen]

One thing I notice about this thread- the majority of problem powers are from the books apart from PHB1+2. In my group we don't use other supplements, which keeps things much more reasonable.

I personally find a higher level elite (ideally built along MM2 lines, with more attacks and damage rather than defences) much more interesting than a solo.

I certainly think same level solos need to be used carefully- probably only a soldier will have defences enough to do well.